The best anti-terror actions are happening in Egypt, Tunesia and other countries.

That's also not entirely true either due to riots and other unspeakable acts.

Yes, i meant not the "best" you could think of. Only the best that are really happening. It maybe would have been much better if those regimes wouldn't have been supported by many so called democratic states (including germany) for so long.

[Octillus]

Well yeah, but we've been installing puppet states for over 100 years in the US. South America's still recovering from our 70's tour.

Well yeah, but we've been installing puppet states for over 100 years in the US. South America's still recovering from our 70's tour.

That's why i find it quite disturbing to see thousands of americans on the street shouting "USA! USA!".

PS: That is the best summary of the USA/Iraq/terrorism-connection i know:
[youtube]n4H_E8b-qmo[/youtube]

[Octillus]

Oh yeah, that whole thing creeps me out to no end. But at the same time, people who keep maybe a little less informed who've been living in fear, might feel relieved. Whether it unjustified or not, being finished with living in fear (even though you are now no better off really) is a lot of relief for folks.

The thing is, we really have no idea who Bin Laden is, what he actually did as far as his involvement in 9/11 and terrorism, etc. We've all seen/heard the various Osama videos and tapes where he takes credit for 9/11 and whatnot, but as far as actual proof that he did it, will we ever know? All the info the public has on any of it is what has been filtered by various governments and media outlets.

If he was behind it all, then I am fully supportive of his death. Then again, I'm a corporal punishment kind of guy. I'd rather remove a person completely from this world then ever allow them the slightest chance to cause harm again. Or breed, for that matter. I'm just a dick like that.

However, a trial would have been nice.

If he was behind it all, then I am fully supportive of his death. Then again, I'm a corporal punishment kind of guy. I'd rather remove a person completely from this world then ever allow them the slightest chance to cause harm again. Or breed, for that matter. I'm just a dick like that.

As long as you don't pretend to be a human rights kind of guy...

If he was behind it all, then I am fully supportive of his death. Then again, I'm a corporal punishment kind of guy. I'd rather remove a person completely from this world then ever allow them the slightest chance to cause harm again. Or breed, for that matter. I'm just a dick like that.

As long as you don't pretend to be a human rights kind of guy...

Only on a case-by-case basis.

Since this news broke, I haven't heard a thing about the damn royal wedding...

I like to look on the bright side.

[EphelDuath666]

Since this news broke, I haven't heard a thing about the damn royal wedding...

I like to look on the bright side.

actually now that you're mentioning it...you're right!

If he was behind it all, then I am fully supportive of his death. Then again, I'm a corporal punishment kind of guy. I'd rather remove a person completely from this world then ever allow them the slightest chance to cause harm again. Or breed, for that matter. I'm just a dick like that.

As long as you don't pretend to be a human rights kind of guy...

Only on a case-by-case basis.

I'm sorry, but i can't find that funny. Corporal punishment as well as death penalty cause much more problems than they seem to solve. They are only good to satisfy feelings of revenge and helplessness, they can maybe make you feel a bit stronger. But they don't prevent crimes at all. If used to children, corporal punishment causes them to use violence by themselves when they are strong enough. Plus maybe establish a feeling that it's good to follow authority. Because of death penalty there have been dozens of innocent people killed in the USA because of poor evidence, racist judges or something like that. If these methods of punishing are established they prove that in this society human rights like the right to live or to learn are less worth than satisfying feelings of revenge. The next step in this logic is to kill people without a trial or to imprison and torture them (Guantanamo Bay, Bradley Manning...) without a trial. Or to start a war which causes more than 100.000 innocent deaths (Iraq). You wished a trial yourself, which i think would indeed have been the only way of "doing justice".
You just can't build a safe and strong democratic society without rational ethics, and corporal punishment and death penalty are highly irrational (like punishing people without a trial). Of course you have to protect people from dangerous criminals, but that's possible without touching their highest rights. And of course it's possible that you have to kill a criminal because he shoots at you and you can't capture him - but that didn't seem to be the case here.

But here's maybe not the right place to discuss that. I hope you think about your point of view at some time. Peace!

PS: I think it's a shame that Saddam Hussein has been sentenced to death. How interesting would it be to see what he would have made with his life when he had the chance to live on (in a prison, of course)? Maybe ask him in 20 years what he have learned or what not... Maybe other people could have learned something from that, too. We will never know because another life has been wiped out for nothing but revenge.

[Octillus]

The only thing I can echo into the previous statement is that I just don't understand how as a society we can use justifiable killing and still profess ourselves to be a superior society.

But I don't profess to understand all of the moral grey areas. These are just the mixed emotions I'm feeling all day while one of the dudes in my office is a veteran and is running around high-fiving people.

But I don't profess to understand all of the moral grey areas. These are just the mixed emotions I'm feeling all day while one of the dudes in my office is a veteran and is running around high-fiving people.

I'm a "beginning" social scientist and i don't want to pretend that i understand anything. I just try to analyze it as good as i can... I read about vietnam veterans that they experienced different "realities": the "culture of war" and the civilian culture (and the process of "Coming home" was difficult because they had to reconcile different realities). My thinking is very much based on my "civilian" culture. If i had experienced being in a war by myself i would probably be thinking in another way about that. Maybe i would see it in a way that we are in a war with bin Laden being the enemy. So his killing would be a victory in this war. If i would see it that way, i would be happy, too.

I'm rather confused as to why they killed him, surely it would be a better idea to question and imprison him? And then they throw his body in the sea? No picture evidence or whatever? I dunno, it seems odd is all.

It was pretty sensible really, I think. If he was a prisoner then every fanatic out there would have had an incentive to take Western hostages in the hopes of gaining his release. Dumping him in the sea is supposed to prevent the same fanatics from having a place to rally around, no shrines to the man, etc.

He was dumped in the sea because no country would take his body.

I'm rather confused as to why they killed him, surely it would be a better idea to question and imprison him? And then they throw his body in the sea? No picture evidence or whatever? I dunno, it seems odd is all.

It was pretty sensible really, I think. If he was a prisoner then every fanatic out there would have had an incentive to take Western hostages in the hopes of gaining his release. Dumping him in the sea is supposed to prevent the same fanatics from having a place to rally around, no shrines to the man, etc.

He was dumped in the sea because no country would take his body.

If his body was handled (as stated) in accordance to Muslim tradition, his burial would have to have been performed with the body placed in a grave facing Mecca within 24hrs after the time of death (ideally before the next daily prayer call), only at sea if there's no land alternative- but the above factors make chucking himin the sea a very reasonable/plausible option.

Death is death, regardless- which is inherantly not a cool thing to celebrate (I can fully understand why some may do so in this case, however) but especially now, as we head into yet more uncertain times with the very real threat of endless reprisals it's not something to flippantly cheer about.
(I hope that didn't come off as sounding cruel or weird, as that wasn't intended- It's been a strange old day, my reaction's been a confused one to say the least)

It'll possibly be a bit better when some credible and unbiased proof/reports surface from the current media shitstorm, as there are claims now from Sky and the Herald Sun that OBL's body was moved to Afghanistan prior to being buried at sea off the coast...Which would be pretty damn difficult considering how landlocked it is. Bleh, I don't dispute what's allegedly gone on (I'm no real conspiracy theorist) but personally, some of what's been reported thus far just doesn't quite sit right. :/

All that's worrying now is what's going to happen next.
Taking out Osama was a bold move, and if it's as true as reported then it's a achievement for sure...but it wont end anything.

Taking out Osama was a bold move, and if it's as true as reported then it's a achievement for sure...but it wont end anything.

Could not have been said any better. A symbolic victory, sure, but the real 'war on terror' (whatever the fuck that is) is yet to be won.

This event proves that we as a race deplore violence one minute, rejoice in it the next. What gives the West the right to dictate what is good and what is not?
They are a great example for us all, murdering and bombing to impose their definition of 'peace', while millions suffer in their own countries. And we believe every bit.

In the words of Sophocles: "Good men become evil with the words of mortal teachers."