ive heard a lot about this movie (and book)

I hadn't heard about the movie, though the scientists face on the website looked familiar, but now I raelly want to see it.

That video has really caught my imagination, although I haven't done physics since school its always intrigued me.

Great link!

I'm more into double clit experiment.

I'm more into double clit experiment.

Oh please shut up. We all know you can't handle that. You know it too!!

I'm more into double clit experiment.

Oh please shut up. We all know you can't handle that. You know it too!!

That's why it's called an experiment, silly.

I'm more into double clit experiment.

Talk about a superposition of potentials! Thats a slightly different type of feline-box conundrum.

By the way, it is amazing how just changing one letter in the title of the thread can allow me to develop puns that will destroy any shred of credibility I may have possessed.

it didnt take long

Okay, in my readings on this topic I kept hearing references to the Many Worlds theory. I did some checking and lo and behold my mind is even more blown now because this theory coupled with the double slit exp creates a world in which this phenomenon make sense. Behold:

http://www.station1.net/DouglasJones/many.htm

http://www.hedweb.com/manworld.htm

*edit*

After reading more deeply in the second link, its almost a religious experience. Whoah, man.....Hevy!

Okay, in my readings on this topic I kept hearing references to the Many Worlds theory. I did some checking and lo and behold my mind is even more blown now because this theory coupled with the double slit exp creates a world in which this phenomenon make sense. Behold:

http://www.station1.net/DouglasJones/many.htm

http://www.hedweb.com/manworld.htm

*edit*

After reading more deeply in the second link, its almost a religious experience. Whoah, man.....Hevy!

reading now, this is damn interesting

Interesting, but no truth value. It's just making all the possibilities a reality. This move can't be justified. The big problem in physics is that the rules of macrophysics (space, earth physics) can't be applied to/don't work with microphysics (particles, atoms etc.). On micro level they discovered via double slit exp. existence of two or more realities (the measurement problem) and this many worlds theory breeds on unjustified application of what is possible (but incomprehensible!) on micro levels to a macro level. The fact is that we don't understand what exactly is going on on the micro level and many worlds theory is now trying to change the way we perceive the macro level which is determining the impossibility of comprehending what is going on on the micro level.

My head is in my ass now.

Interesting, but no truth value. It's just making all the possibilities a reality. This move can't be justified. The big problem in physics is that the rules of macrophysics (space, earth physics) can't be applied to/don't work with microphysics (particles, atoms etc.).

Sure, I accept that the many worlds theory may be some kind of a stop-gap panacea, but if the math works, then I hesistate to agree with you saying it has no truth value. Now I will be honest, my pencil is dull when it comes to particle physics, physics in general or even them fancy math numbers and such and i only make the following statement as someone who has read other's opinions about such things and not crunched the numbers, but if the most brilliant people who live today are having trouble disputing and (gasp) even somewhat agreeing with the theory, it says something about its perceived credibility.

Yes you are right about about the incongruity between the rules on each level. Democritus said way way back (in the 1800's I think ) That "all that truly exists is atoms and empty space, the rest is but opinion." While we are finding out that he may be dead wrong about the first point the second is just dead on. Dont forget that ALL matter is made of things that we classify as energy: electrons, protons, yada yada. So what we are talking about is the same stuff everywhere regardless of whether it it is part of a a molecule of carbon in the atmosphere of a gas giant or shot through the double slit.

On micro level they discovered via double slit exp. existence of two or more realities (the measurement problem) and this many worlds theory breeds on unjustified application of what is possible (but incomprehensible!) on micro levels to a macro level.

Yes it is known that the problem arises when we apply "Matter" rules to energy. Matter, as shown in the DBL SLT EXP, does not interfere with itself although it is made of the same electrons that when shot through the slits, does in fact interfere. To explain this by saying that our reality does not unfurl until a choice is made by a sentient being or "Dumb" potential of energy is realized, such as the shrodinger's cat experiment element decay, rings a little far fetched.

This means (and I hope you appreciate the depth of this concept) that as complicated, sentient beings, more possibilitites exist and thus more new vertexes (dimensions) are created, just because we are here. Therefore, if you had trouble deciding what movie to watch, there is a vertex created for every video, or every possible combination thereof, that existed at the video store. So in essence, our descisions create copies of ourselves in slighly differing circumstances (And I envy the much happier "me" who decided not to write this diatribe).

This theory blurs the lines between philosophy, religion and science, and although it is well accepted, I feel that a representation of every possibility is its own universe is too wasteful to be the case.

But what the hell do I know? Time for a nap.

So you agree there is only one your/him/myself in one world?

You see, I don't understand the shift from possibility to reality. Possibilities are almost infinite, ok, but why make them reality, how can a sheer possibility CREATE what you call vertexes or dimensions? And who is experiencing those possibilities? I for sure am not!

My stance is: in order to make the many worlds theory work (justifying the shift), one must suppress something true.

If I push the envelope, I'd say many worlds theory coincides with today's "zeitgeist", the capitalist zeitgeist: nothing is wasted, everything is realised, nothing is given up etc. It's just so something you would expect to come up eventually. But it's a phantasm, it can't be realised for structural reasons.

If great minds dedicate their time and expertise, that doesn't in itself vouch for the truth value. They are exercising thoughts, drawing consequences of theoretical propositions. That's great, fruitful, plenty will be learned, but as I said, they must bend the rules heavily to keep it senseful. It's hi-tech hi-science wordplay.

What I believe will be discovered at the end is the structural reasons that led those great minds to think there is a possibility of many worlds, where there can be only one.

First, goat, I have to say this is one of the most interesting conversations I have had in a LONG time.

Second, I am going to (concisely, I hope) explain my rather bastardized understanding of things.

On a micro-level, we are not able to measure the exact position of an exact sub-atomic particle (electron, proton etc.). It is not because it is too small, it is because it does not exist long enough to pinpoint its location, weight, color shape or any other way we may perceive something in our environment. We cannot see it, as far as I know, but we can tell that it is there because of telltale signs such as electromagnetism, polarity and the existence of ionic compounds.

This really gets very philosophical, almost spiritual when we have to forsake empirical evidence for mathematics to explain something, and I have my reservations for this exact theory. I just have to answer the question of belief in this with the age old scientific creed, "my mind is open but my head is shaking." It is interesting to think about, though.

What I do know, however, is that everything in this universe when boiled down to its base parts, either moves/ocillates or it doesn't. Movement is energy; lack thereof is entropy. The fact that we (energy) exist in a system that consistently erodes movement because of various frictional forces (entropy) and are still here to have this conversation is proof enough to me that there is something weirder than we think going on.

Because (switch definition of "energy" now) sub atomic particles do not exist on this plane/dimension at all times (i.e. electrons teleport from here to there, to and fro but always remaining in their energy shell), it seems that this is some evidence of movement as well; not movement in 3-D, but extra-dimensional movement. Yes there are other dimensions, I would bet the farm on that, and DESY the german particle accelerator guys are going to prove it soon.

To answer your question about possibilities becoming reality, I would have to say that we have everyday proof of possibilities becoming reality whenever we perfom a statistics test, such as finding a standard deviation or a t-test. NOTHING absolutely NOTHING states that samples taken in sufficient quantities will regress towards the mean (i.e. fit into the nice bell-curve shape), and yet it does....HMMM......every damn time too!

Now, in much the same way, if we wanted to record an observed behavior of people, lets say intellect. First we would have to find the middle ground. Give everyone a test, score it, divide it by the number of tests and voila!
Next we would have to fill in everyone's score, and as stated above when compared to each other with the mean score as the middle, we would get a nice smooth bell shape.

The bell shape is always there, it is eternal....applies to everything we can see and/or record.

There is also always a mean......

What if, in this multiverse, WE were the MEAN?

HMM, the more I think about the more this makes sense.

*edit*

Got a compulsion to listen to Skeksis after writing this. Damn near every line in the song gave me chills.

The Dev knows

Good post, Sir.

Be careful re:

Yes there are other dimensions

It is highly likely, shall we say. Until we find them there little stringy fellas it remains frustratingly elusive.

The Dev (not really): "Bring on the STRING, my God!"

Check out a book/TV series called The Elegant Universe (<- clickage). Quite an eye-opener.

Yeah I know its not fact yet, but I feel that it is true and that means I can say it because this here is Karl Rove's America.

<Pure Sarcasm>

Extra dimensions are a necessary ingredient in string theory, not that I want to open that can of worms. But like I said I would bet the farm that we will find out they exist, maybe even sooner than later. If not, I am sure I will look like an idiot...yet again.

Maybe if they dont find any, I hear Hwang Woo-Suk is looking for employment, I am sure he'll find some.

In Fact, The Elegant Universe was the thing that started me on this whole kick, Brian Greene does a great job bringing science to Troglodytes like me.