seriously, on what criteria is something metal? And I'm not trying to bring in anything philosophical, purely from a musical perspective.

I agree that a lot of Slipknot's music could be described as quite poppy, but then so could a alot of other bands which are described as metal. Similarly, there are a huge number of metal bands who push no boundaries and do nothing out of the ordinary. Does that mean that musical genres can not broadly be used to help classify the minefield of music out there?

seriously, on what criteria is something metal? And I'm not trying to bring in anything philosophical, purely from a musical perspective.

I agree that a lot of Slipknot's music could be described as quite poppy, but then so could a alot of other bands which are described as metal. Similarly, there are a huge number of metal bands who push no boundaries and do nothing out of the ordinary. Does that mean that musical genres can not broadly be used to help classify the minefield of music out there?

Welcome to the mindfield that is metal .

I seriously get tired of discussing metal sometimes, like when someone told me that later Emperor is NOT black metal or something..

I've even walked into it myself, through my ambient work. Someone said to me "THIS ISN'T AMBIENT, IT ISN'T NOISE...WHAT IS IT?!"

How am I supposed to know?

I think bands should have enough influences and skill etc to be unable to SAY what they are doing. I can't agree with bands who are like "WE ARE TRUE DEATH METAL", yeah, so how do you qualify as true?

Ach..mindfuck..

Yes well I certainly agree with that.

These days VERY few metal bands fit comfortably into a genre. death metal has such genres as doom, melodic, gore, brutal, technical, progressive, forest etc etc - almost every band owns its own sub-genre these days.

I guess at the end of the day it helps in recommending bands to somebody if they say "I like doom death".

However if someone said to me to recommend some good entry level metal bands they would be the likes of Pantera, Fear Factory, In Flames etc. It wouldn't be Slipknot. They fit into the category of "Recommend me something terrible" (And it's not metal).

Very talented group of guys. The new stuff is much more musicaly based then prior releases. The greatest modern metal shred guitar to come out in years!
-Brent

Oh, fuck! Did you just say there is a "forest metal" genre within death metal? That's hilarity.

People need to calm down with the sub-genres 'cause it's now ridiculous.

I'm not even going to call it metal anymore. From now on, it is Rock and Roll. All of it. Even alternative. All is the same. Unified under one genre.

So sayeth I. Look on me and be dismayed!!!

Oh, and I don't really like Slipknot. One of my students was a big fan. I guess she was a maggot. So, I borrowed Iowa. I just couldn't handle that level of fucking negativity. I turned it off and put Ocean Machine on to cleanse my ears.

Yes well I certainly agree with that.

These days VERY few metal bands fit comfortably into a genre. death metal has such genres as doom, melodic, gore, brutal, technical, progressive, forest etc etc - almost every band owns its own sub-genre these days.

I guess at the end of the day it helps in recommending bands to somebody if they say "I like doom death".

However if someone said to me to recommend some good entry level metal bands they would be the likes of Pantera, Fear Factory, In Flames etc. It wouldn't be Slipknot. They fit into the category of "Recommend me something terrible" (And it's not metal).

Burzum can you give me one proper reason that makes you think Slipknot are shit?
I'm not agreeing, nor disagreeing with you. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I just can't stand it when people scream such things, but do not support their opinions.

I don't get Slipknot's music.

However, I can see why to some people, an album like "Iowa" would have the same meaning and value that, say, "Burn My Eyes" has for me.

You're not comparing Machine Head with Slipknot are you!!!???

Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh.

I think he means that for some people Iowa is a metal album that 'started it all' for them. Isn't that what you mean, King Fear? Not that the music is similar anyway.

Spot on, man.

bla bla bla bla bla........they are essentially just heavy pop. They are what teenagers listen to in the belief that they're listening to metal, yet it contains few of the elements that comprise metal itself - the freedom, the ability to explore music without limitation

Yure rite! They are really f*ckin' poppy. I think that's probably why I like them.
*sighs....... I don't even know why I'm plyaing this game

But you bring up a good point. Everyone has the freedom and the right to explore music without limitation.
I've always thought Dev's fanbase were a right bunch of intelligent people, willing to listen, explore and push down and break their own boundaries..... without feeling the need to label or categorize anything.
Where are you people?

Either way - I was having a breif discussion with two of my best friends - we were talking about creation vs. destruction.
Two of us felt they were different things all together and the other felt they were the same.
I think in order to create something truly original - some destruction must take place.
One must destroy perhaps some of the limitations that society (in a group or as a whole - perhaps even an individual) bogs us down with, learned behaviour and perhaps even some learned sciences - all of which I think create a false comfort zone of creativity. ie. You know it and you feel comfortable creating in that zone.
But there are people out there willing to deconstruct some of those ideals -without asking your opinion or begging for your approval.... like making pop oriented music that's heavy.... and hell... let's throw in some masks...........

My point - and I've said it all over this forum before -

You don't like it, don't listen.

What's the point of calling it down - when it really isn't affecting you or making a real difference in your life?

Move on........ eat a hotdog............ play chess....... have (safe) sex........
.......... and be metul

Very well said. I think for the most part, most people on this forum generally respect each others' tastes, and they are pretty diverse

now inspired by bloodred's argument i'm gonna eat a hotdog have some sex then watch xmen 2

[EphelDuath666]

now inspired by bloodred's argument i'm gonna eat a hotdog have some sex then watch xmen 2

he's killing two birds with one stone actually because it's my "hotdog"

[JuZ]

I can think of one good reason to put music into a category: so I can find it in a music store. Other than that... meh. Why bother? People seem to need to create an identity within their little subgenre, perhaps to counteract the complete lack of identity in their own lives. I'm not talking about artistic expression, I'm talking about this "I'm sooooo Forest... you're not Forest at all!" Punky Bruster anyone?

I mean, "Forest"?????? WTF!?!?

Other than that, it's all just noise that goes into my head what I does like a lot, or sometimes I does not like a lot. *ahem*

Oh, and I have Iowa and whilst I'm not a 'huge' fan of Slipknot, I quite like them and can think of plenty of other bands I'd slag off before them.

Burzum can you give me one proper reason that makes you think Slipknot are shit?
I'm not agreeing, nor disagreeing with you. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I just can't stand it when people scream such things, but do not support their opinions.

Yes. I don't rate their musicianship. It's a muddle of noise with no defining qualities that make me sit up and say 'wow'. It also strikes me as music that is trying to sound heavy and evil without doing so naturally. When I listen to Burzum I hear geunine pain and anguish, when I listen to Immortal I hear a genuine crunch to the guitars and Abbath sounding like the Devil is lurking in the snow. When I hear, let' s say SYL, I hear pure energy, anger and intensity. Slipknot sound like they're trying to manufacture their sound - and I hate it!!! Lyrically they are terrible. I'm not usually one that is into lyrics to any great extent but I do notice when they're terrible (actually I'm watching Metallica's Some Kind of Monster at the moment and Frantic has similarly awful lyrics, albeit they were once a very good band). Corey's voice is annoying. He has one particular level he hits in his voice that sounds half-decent but most of the time he grates on me. They have a couple of tracks that are promising but they waste it with their mediocrity and the fact that everything else is crap.


Incidentally, I agree how ridiculous to have 'forest metal' etc etc, I'm just saying it exists. I swear that there must be as many sub-genres as there are bands these days.!

Now, people will disagree on exactly what makes metal metal but as far as I and many, many others are concerned they are essentially just heavy pop.

Pop isn't a genre dude. I understand that metal is diametrically opposed to pop by its very nature, but just because Master of Puppets sells millions of copies doesn't stop it being metal.

They are what teenagers listen to in the belief that they're listening to metal

Stop me if I'm out of line here, but I think you care way to much about what OTHER PEOPLE listen to. Again, I can understand why you feel this way. I've had conversations with people who like music I enjoy that have almost deminished my own enjoyment of that music, shit, there are plenty of metalheads that almost make me ashamed to call myself one. ALMOST.

yet it contains few of the elements that comprise metal itself - the freedom, the ability to explore music without limitation, the crunch and the beauty that can compliment one another.

It's already been mentioned, but this is a crap definintion of metal. It's also leaning further towards the philosophical underpinnings of metal, not the musical defininition. Which makes sense that you'd rather reject Slipknot as being believers in something different to you, rather than try and say the music they play isn't metal sounding enough.
But I'd even disagree with you there, Slipknot's themes concentrate on individual pain and strength, relentless individualism, drugs, killing, torture. All very metal themes.

More importantly, they're crap.

Some metal is crap. Doesn't stop things being metal. Also this is so subjective it's not even worth discussing.

And lyrically ... "If you're 555 then I'm 666'. That just screams 'We're trying to sound evil because it's cool to be evil' while ignoring the elements within the music that lift it above the crowd.

Iron Maiden. Venom. Immortal.
fuck....
"In a time, when dinosaurs walked the earth..."

Lots of metal lyrics are really fucking dumb, more so perhaps than any other genre. I've lost count of how many other metalheads have told me that lyrics don't matter AT ALL. Strangely enough... you just quoted one of the Slipknot songs I really like, BECAUSE the chorus is so fucking stupid.

Let's make a list:

.....

See something wrong with Slipknot sitting on the bottom of that list? If we was to draw a family tree with perhaps Black Sabbath, Venom and Death at the start and Maiden shortly after I'm sure we could conncet the dots to all of those bands ... except one.

The Black Sabbath-Heavy Metal-Death Metal-Black Metal progression is not the only line that can be drawn through the evolution of metal. It is however perhaps the most obvious, conservative and narrow line you could draw. A wonderful story of metal feeding on itself (if you are willing to ignore the influence of punk). Slipknot do not fit into that progression in the same way, they would not exist without 80's death metal, but then they draw their influences from further outside metal norms.

if someone said to me to recommend some good entry level metal bands they would be the likes of Pantera, Fear Factory, In Flames etc. It wouldn't be Slipknot. They fit into the category of "Recommend me something terrible" (And it's not metal).

I find it pretty hard to understand how you could consider Fear Factory metal, but not Slipknot. Anyway. Slipknot hardly needs recommending to anyone, they are THE entry level band for a new generation of metalheads, for better or worse, their profile is large enough.

I get the impression that if you were to call Slipknot metal, 'metal' would lose something for you. That's a little sad.

Yes. I don't rate their musicianship. It's a muddle of noise with no defining qualities that make me sit up and say 'wow'. It also strikes me as music that is trying to sound heavy and evil without doing so naturally. When I listen to Burzum I hear geunine pain and anguish, when I listen to Immortal I hear a genuine crunch to the guitars and Abbath sounding like the Devil is lurking in the snow. When I hear, let' s say SYL, I hear pure energy, anger and intensity. Slipknot sound like they're trying to manufacture their sound - and I hate it!!!

You can sum this up in one word. Authenticity. Which is a totally subjective and personal reaction.
Shit, I'm even with you on this, most of slipknot's stuff sounds pretty contrived to me to. But that's why I enjoy it on a more visceral level, just a nice headbanging mosh type groove. I'm not into their drawn out emotional songs. This doesn't stop them being metal.

It's also interesting that you seem to see in Burzum what the 'teenagers' you diride find in slipknot. I react to SYL on that level too, it's very personal adolescent 'becoming' music, but I don't relate to Burzum in that way, Burzum is a more trance inducing trancendental trip for me.