HEVYDEVY FORUMS

Posted: **Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:07 pm**

in the intro riff of this song, what is the theory behind what is happening. i play guitar pretty well, but i know nothing of the workings, and most of the time i dont even know what note im hitting.

the intro riff seems to remain in the key of C, but switches between... 2 different scales? am i right here? i know that whatever is happening, its not in the standard C (major?) that devin employs a lot of the time.

i dont require a wall of text explanation, but i've been ever so curious about this for a while, and would like a small understanding of it. any help is appreciated, thanks.

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:28 am**

All I know is that Devin plays in Open C tuning (CGCGCE or something)

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:10 am**

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?do ... 6183165869

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:49 pm**

Wow... Ok let me clarify. I'm well aware what tuning Dev plays in, as of like 6 years ago, and I know how to play the song. I was looking for an actual learned musician to help explain the dynamics of the theory in the intro riff of the song, not what tuning he's playing in, or a link to Great Average Guitar.

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:16 pm**

Sounds to me like he is playing a G scale to open with, though I could be wrong. If you can show me what frets and strings you're hitting, I'd be more apt to tell you.

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:43 pm**

Well the intro has two similar parts, the first being

Code: Select all

    E--------------------|
    C--------------------|
    G--------------------|
    C-----5--------8--7--|
    G--5-----6--5--------|
    C--------------------|
    
    E--------------------|
    C--------------------|
    G--------------------|
    C--0--5--------------|
    G--0--5--------------|
    C--0--5--------------|

and the second being

Code: Select all

    E--------------------|
    C--------------------|
    G--------------------|
    C-----4--------10--7-|
    G--5-----6--5--------|
    C--------------------|
    
    E--------------------|
    C--------------------|
    G--------------------|
    C--0--4--------------|
    G--0--4--------------|
    C--0--4--------------|

As anyone can tell, there is a shift in dynamics here, but I'm not educated enough to know exactly what is happening. I'd love to find out though.
Is the scale changing? Is the key changing? I don't think its the key, as it still starts in C.

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:47 pm**

Honestly, I doubt Devin even took that into consideration when writing this song, I think he just thought it sounded right.

It sounds like it's not in C Major that's for sure.

C major is C D E F G A B

The notes in the first part are C, F, C#, C, G# and G.

The notes in the second part are C, E, C#, C, D and G.

Technically, this part of the song could be in A major, which has sharp notes F, C, and G. At the same time, we have a natural F, C and G in the first part.

If anything it's a jump from C major to A major and back.

This is why music like Dev's shouldnt be picked apart so much.

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:38 pm**

Agreed. xD

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:51 pm**

Whether it should or shouldn't be picked apart, and whether it was planned or not from a theory standpoint, is moot to me. I just know that something explainable is happening underneath it, and was always curious.

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:07 pm**

Lots of standard classically influenced patterns in F minor. An overall i-V-i (Fm-C-Fm) thing going on, if that means anything to you.

The notes are not C# or G#, they're Db and Ab--same pitch, different note, theoretically speaking. And this isn't in the key of A at all. I don't mean to be rude, but this song is one of Dev's easiest to pick apart. The chord progression is predictable (but beautiful) given a little theory background.

So to answer your question, going note by note:

The first note is a pickup on the 5th scale degree in F minor (C), which goes to F, the tonic. The melody line then has some non-chord tones (like Db and G), but overall you get the "feel" of the tonic chord (i/Fm) for 2 measures. Then that C becomes a pickup to a C7 (C major with a b7, or Bb) chord. Again, the melody has a non-chord tone (Db), but you get the "feel" of a dominant-seven chord (V7/C7) for the next two measures. Then it repeats: tonic, dominant, tonic, dominant, tonic. But on the last tonic, Dev starts making it a little more interesting.

Let me know if you want any clarification or more analysis. I'm a composer, and I really enjoy this stuff.

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:33 pm**

Thank you very much my friend. From what I can remember of the time I gave a shit about the notes and the progressions, that makes sense. It's really been bugging me, and I hope to learn something from it, if even on a subconscious level.

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:57 pm**

AlucardXIX wrote:Honestly, I doubt Devin even took that into consideration when writing this song, I think he just thought it sounded right.

I'd give Dev a little more credit than that. He's smart enough to at least recognize what he's doing, theoretically, even though I've read that he doesn't like to get bogged down with the logistics of it all because it detaches him from the music (great advice). In other words, he's not wondering what the next sound classical move is, just feeling progressions with the capability of knowing what he's doing. "A Simple Lullaby" is a very good example. :wink:

Anyway, Ouodo, glad to help. Theory can really give you a whole new arsenal in composing and turn good ideas into great works. Obviously there's more going into it than knowing scales and chords, but it's a hell of a start.

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:37 am**

soundsofentropy wrote:Lots of standard classically influenced patterns in F minor. An overall i-V-i (Fm-C-Fm) thing going on, if that means anything to you.

The notes are not C# or G#, they're Db and Ab--same pitch, different note, theoretically speaking. And this isn't in the key of A at all. I don't mean to be rude, but this song is one of Dev's easiest to pick apart. The chord progression is predictable (but beautiful) given a little theory background.

So to answer your question, going note by note:

The first note is a pickup on the 5th scale degree in F minor (C), which goes to F, the tonic. The melody line then has some non-chord tones (like Db and G), but overall you get the "feel" of the tonic chord (i/Fm) for 2 measures. Then that C becomes a pickup to a C7 (C major with a b7, or Bb) chord. Again, the melody has a non-chord tone (Db), but you get the "feel" of a dominant-seven chord (V7/C7) for the next two measures. Then it repeats: tonic, dominant, tonic, dominant, tonic. But on the last tonic, Dev starts making it a little more interesting.

Let me know if you want any clarification or more analysis. I'm a composer, and I really enjoy this stuff.

wat

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:41 am**

Abydost wrote:
soundsofentropy wrote:Lots of standard classically influenced patterns in F minor. An overall i-V-i (Fm-C-Fm) thing going on, if that means anything to you.

The notes are not C# or G#, they're Db and Ab--same pitch, different note, theoretically speaking. And this isn't in the key of A at all. I don't mean to be rude, but this song is one of Dev's easiest to pick apart. The chord progression is predictable (but beautiful) given a little theory background.

So to answer your question, going note by note:

The first note is a pickup on the 5th scale degree in F minor (C), which goes to F, the tonic. The melody line then has some non-chord tones (like Db and G), but overall you get the "feel" of the tonic chord (i/Fm) for 2 measures. Then that C becomes a pickup to a C7 (C major with a b7, or Bb) chord. Again, the melody has a non-chord tone (Db), but you get the "feel" of a dominant-seven chord (V7/C7) for the next two measures. Then it repeats: tonic, dominant, tonic, dominant, tonic. But on the last tonic, Dev starts making it a little more interesting.

Let me know if you want any clarification or more analysis. I'm a composer, and I really enjoy this stuff.

wat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:50 pm**

soundsofentropy wrote:Lots of standard classically influenced patterns in F minor. An overall i-V-i (Fm-C-Fm) thing going on, if that means anything to you.

The notes are not C# or G#, they're Db and Ab--same pitch, different note, theoretically speaking. And this isn't in the key of A at all. I don't mean to be rude, but this song is one of Dev's easiest to pick apart. The chord progression is predictable (but beautiful) given a little theory background.

So to answer your question, going note by note:

The first note is a pickup on the 5th scale degree in F minor (C), which goes to F, the tonic. The melody line then has some non-chord tones (like Db and G), but overall you get the "feel" of the tonic chord (i/Fm) for 2 measures. Then that C becomes a pickup to a C7 (C major with a b7, or Bb) chord. Again, the melody has a non-chord tone (Db), but you get the "feel" of a dominant-seven chord (V7/C7) for the next two measures. Then it repeats: tonic, dominant, tonic, dominant, tonic. But on the last tonic, Dev starts making it a little more interesting.

Let me know if you want any clarification or more analysis. I'm a composer, and I really enjoy this stuff.

If you happen to read my post again I do believe I used the words "could be" when I mentioned A major. I haven't dabbled in theory in almost 2 years now, I find that when writing music it can be almost a burden. Thought knowing your chords/notes/scales is a great thing.

It's great you know the theory behind it, but never be condescending about your knowledge of music theory. I simply stated the sharps instead of the flats because it is sometimes easier for people to understand sharps.

HEVYDEVY FORUMS

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