Well the question is a bit obscure.
I mean, like when you think, you think with words (and pictures), in your native language.
When you're good at several languages, you can think in either of those languages.

As a non-experienced guitarist (well I surely don't play 5hours a day so I don't really gain experience to see a good improvement), as have to play the melody in my head. Of course when the tempo gets faster, I can't play everynotes in my head and transpose it in my hands so everything's fucked up.
That's a step I've not succeed to cross until now. I'm not sure if it's my hand slowing me, or "my head" (as I play the melody in my head before playing with my hand).
The only times I succeed at this is when playing twin notes, like that :

Code: Select all|-------------------------------------|------------------------------------|
|-------10-10-----8-8-----6-6-----5-5-|------10-10-----8-8-----6-6-5-5-----|
|*--7-7-------7-7-----7-7-----5-5-----|--7-7-------7-7-----7-7---------2-2-|
|*------------------------------------|------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------|------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------|------------------------------------|

I play the notes once in my head, but I play them twice with my hand.

So how does it works for experienced guitarists who can play 16th at tempo 200 for instance ? Each part is decomposed, then "compressed" ?
For instance a solo with several nice sweeps, rather than memorising each note, each part of the sweep is remembered as an arpeggio, so you may dicrease the data to remind from 16 sixteenth to let say 2 arpeggios ?
And that's where muscular reflexs are usefull, cuz' the hand automatically plays the arpeggio you have in mind.

And when singing along playing ? How do you handle that ?
I sometimes try, not much cuz' my voice sucks so I don't feel I'll ever need to sing, but as soon as there's a change in the strumming rythm, I'm off.

So that could mean I haven't practice the basics enough (scales and chords and arpeggios), that's quite possible. But I just wonder about the process "in the head of an experienced guitarist".

:O

I'm completely self taught and have no clue on guitar scales, I just write the way I do...just let my hands go where they wish to go, most of the time they're not fast enough and I have to practice it a ton before I get the desired sound, but I trust my fingers are just being guided by whatever muse is showing me the tune. I generally write something that I can't play, like you say you're doing and then practice it a ton until I can play it. Then I proceed to practice it more until it's completely programed into my nervous system and I don't have to think about it. Then I practice it some more so that I can sing something with it, these days I've been trying to keep my vocal rythem's as different as the guitaring as possible.

So my answer is, write whatever is coming to you, if you have to slow it down and then speed it back up with practice. After you write it, practice until your fingers bleed, and then keep practicing That's what I do for my solo's until I want to play them too fast heh.

[djskrimp]

Every single guitarist will tell you to start of a new or difficult piece of music slowly. PLay it that slow until you can speed up a little bit and still not make any mistakes. Eventually, you'll get up to tempo. What you are doing is building muscle memory. There comes a point when you can no longer "think" how to play something; it has to be almost like a reflex. When you play slow and build up speed while making no mistakes, your muscles learn to play it as fast as you'd like without the mistakes. If you go at it too fast too soon, you muscles still haven't "learned" what you want to play and make mistakes. Make sense?

I've been playing for 14 years, without ANY formal instruction whatsoever, and I can tell you that it all comes down to learning how to play things right first, then building up speed.

Don't start learning at a too slow tempo though, it makes it more difficult as you have to "wait" when the next note is played. Play it at a steady tempo.

[djskrimp]

Don't start learning at a too slow tempo though, it makes it more difficult as you have to "wait" when the next note is played. Play it at a steady tempo.

Thank you, that is good advice that I forgot to mention. See, not all guitarists are ego-maniacs.

Thanks for your answers and advices^^

Hey StrappingYoungLad (sorry your first name must be known on the board but I can't remember^^), was my post to mathematical maybe ?

Well I was wondering if experienced guitarist spend 2 weeks playing each song before getting it right, or if they unconsciously decompose the song in different pattern (knowing what to play just with the root of a bar for instance, or sayin themselves "oh well, I won't bother learning it, it starts with this root so I'll just improvise on stage...", and rather than overheating their brain by thinking of 32 notes in a row, just memorising the arpegios names (or root, or something), bringing the amount of information from 32notes to 4 arpegios for instance). Does it make sens ?

In fact I wrote this post thinking of an article from http://www.cyberfret.com , where the guitarist talks about horyzontal and vertical growth.
This one :
http://www.cyberfret.com/power-practici ... tarist.php

And well what he says "Here is another even more common scenario. Someone comes in for lessons after playing for awhile, and when I ask them to play, they make a couple of excuses, and then they play really badly! Then I ask them to play something else, and they play that really badly! This is the person unable to create Vertical Growth. The reason they cannot raise their level as a player, is because THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO PRACTICE TO SOLVE PROBLEMS AND ACHIEVE RESULTS! Also, because of this, there is no solid foundation of technique for Vertical Growth to be built upon. So there is only Horizontal Growth, more things played the same way, in this case, badly.

Do you know how many young players I've seen who play only the beginning of a hundred songs, and play them badly? Lots." it's exactly me (though hundred is to bit^^).

Well maybe I'm simply not putting enough time and dedication in learning guitar, but it's already hard to find a song that I like to the point I want to play it (as moreover, most of the songs I like to that point are from "a certain artist", in open C, have the guitars totally layered in the mix, and have no official tabs available ), most of those are also to fast (as I'm more into metal than anything else with guitar), so I just play some parts of them, but that doesn't even make me feel proud, playing the same 20 seconds again and again is boring.

That's why I'm sick of learning by myself, maybe I can't find by myself what I do wrong and would need someone experienced to find out (as many guitarists obviously learned all by themselves and succeeded).

The guy I quoted also talks alot about being relaxed, and then again, my arms and fingers are totally tight when I try to play "fast", and it's just not possible to keep the speed, it hurts after a few seconds, so, though I'm skinny, I'm sure it's not the right way to do it (and I've just seen a video of an 8 years old boy playing twice as fast as me, so if he can do it, I should be able to do it, even skinny )

I mean, most songs (as long as it's metal), have sixteenth around 120. I don't consider that fast (as they can play 16th at 200), but I can't even reach 120. 110 is my maximum, and after 1 hour of playing (of warming-up) I can at last play the Deep Peace solo "decently" (well I hope).

Just for information, what do you consider "fast" ? Which speed do you usually play a song when you're learning it ? (let's take the sixteenth as reference).

For instance this lick from Kissing the Shadows from Children Of Bodom :

Code: Select allD||--------------------------------------|--------------------17-15-14----------|
A||----------14-15-17--15-14-15-14-------|----------14-15-17-----------17-15-14-|
F||--16----------------------------16-14-|--16----------------------------------|
C||--------------------------------------|--------------------------------------|
G||--------------------------------------|--------------------------------------|
D||--------------------------------------|--------------------------------------|


                                                                                                     
--------14----17-15-14----------------15-14-------|--------------14-15-14----14----------------------|
--15-17----15----------17-14-15-17-14-------17-15-|-----14-15-17----------17----17-15-14-15-14-------|
--------------------------------------------------|--16----------------------------------------16-14-|
--------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------|
--------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------|
--------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------|

I played it a hundred times, if not a thousand (I used to listen to this song 23/7 at a time), but once I reach tempo 110 (those are sixteenth), I can't get faster. (and I'd say I started learning at around 70)

Sometimes I have the feeling I should just stop trying to learn metal songs and find only "playable" songs, slower songs, just basic chords strumming or songs with not much rythme changes but with lot of scale patterns, so I coud at least feel a bit proud of playing something from the beginning to the end (that's why I like to play the deep peace solo, it's not fast, but still beautifull), and becoming better without even realising it.

And sometimes I just think I don't put enough time in it. Quite frustrating when you wish to play Detox or Home Nucleonics...

hmmmph, I gotta say that starting at "too slow" a tempo is awesome. 4 note per string patterns (especially for the gcgcgce that i'm sure many of this forum have tried) can be quite a stretch for some guitarists. Playing very slow and accurate is key. Once you really get anal about technique and are able to avoid any unwanted sounds, the tempos can get faster with more comfort. With patience and good technique, the 200bpm is a milestone but not that farfetched. Just gotta be dedicated and give up some sex.

EDIT** TO answer the question asked in the opener,(at least true to my experience) I found that working up to the tempos makes it easier to concentrate on each note and pick out the notes quicker individually, its just a matter of practice and familiarity.

[djskrimp]

Aha!!! I see your problem now: YOU know the beginning of many songs, but that's about it, huh?
I'll tell you how I dealt with the problem.
1) It's hard to play beyond the riff or opening chords if you aren't playing in a band. When you play in a band, even if you are just learning, you have to learn what YOUR part of the song means in relation to other instruments, and the song overall. So, if you have ANY way of playing with a band of any sort, it will help you improve your playing leaps and bounds, because you learning to play in the context of a song, instead of "fourth string, 5th fret, blah blah blah".
2) Even if you don't know how to play an entire song, you can play the root chord or note when learning it, so that you have a point of reference. Eventually, you will learn when to punch in, and when to pull back. At any rate, before you play in or with a band, try to learn the fundamentals of a song, that you aren't completely lost. Oh, and don't start off with Children of Bodom songs. Alexi Laiho is a MONSTER on the guitar...you could learn a lot more if you start off with slower songs. Old Metallica is a good starting point.

As far as singing along with guitar lines as you are playing (I presume you mean this as in the jazz technique of singing your solo as you play rather than playing guitar and singing words at the same time)

I have played for so long and so much that I just have got in my head the sound of eveyr note in the scales I use, so when I go to do scat singing along with a solo, I get the starting note and then from there I am able to sing along fairly accurately the notes I am playing by thinking of the interval (the distance between the note I am on and the next note I will go to) so I guess the trick is just to play as much as you can and particularly take note of the notes in your scales as you play them.

As others have said, play everything slowly, and play the same things over and over and over until you are sick to deth of them. back when I was convinced that shredding was actually cool I would play Yngwie Malmsteen licks for two hours each just so I wouldn't have to think about them. You have to ingrain them correctly so much that your muscle memory does the work for you and instead of thinking "note 1, note 2, note 3" etc you just think "arpeggio in A minor" and it just happens.

To ingrain that shit properly you have to do it as slowly as you can until you are certain you can play it faster without making a single mistake. If you make mistakes, you will learn it wrong and your muscle memory will be bad because it will not be playing it correctly.

Erf, sorry guys, I read the answers, thought a reply would take ages so I put it back to the next day, then in the end forgot to reply...

Djskrimp >>> Yup', that's it, I wish I could play in a band. And yep', being inspired by Bodom then SYL is not so great when you need to play guitar but don't either put 10 hours a day in it . While waiting for the hypothetic day when I can play SYL, I'm playing some japanese rock band with my bro'. We switch the guitars off in guitarpro and play along the bass and drum tracks. Mostly some basic mower vhords, but oh well, I'd rather build a solid rythmic base for now^^.

Greg >>> Both meaning in fact^^
I've been trying to sing along those simple power chords songs, and that quite 'fun' how it simply comes naturally in the end, after playing the song again and again. Of course, as soon as the rythm is just a bit more complicated, I'm lost^^. At least when someone wants to talk to me while I'm playing I don't look like a retard trying to divide his bain in two different occupation^^

And m'kay about "how you count the notes", it's a bit like the mind is consistently "compressing" the song, first note after note, then bar after bar, arpegio after arpegio, etc etc...

And I guess I should definitely learn the classic chords, but it's really boring... I'm sick of them to death after 10 minutes maybe :þ

try a few simpler tabs, then with the simpler tabs play em faster. later attempt that tab. it just takes time to get used to a tab sometimes. ive been playing muse - hysteria on bass for about a 4 days, ive got the notes right but its corresponding fretwork with picking thats fucking me up at the moment. it just takes time, practice the tab even if its not perfect, and then once you get the jist of it, try to fix your problems

Well the question is a bit obscure.
I mean, like when you think, you think with words (and pictures), in your native language.
When you're good at several languages, you can think in either of those languages.

As a non-experienced guitarist (well I surely don't play 5hours a day so I don't really gain experience to see a good improvement), as have to play the melody in my head. Of course when the tempo gets faster, I can't play everynotes in my head and transpose it in my hands so everything's fucked up.
That's a step I've not succeed to cross until now. I'm not sure if it's my hand slowing me, or "my head" (as I play the melody in my head before playing with my hand).
The only times I succeed at this is when playing twin notes, like that :

Code: Select all|-------------------------------------|------------------------------------|
|-------10-10-----8-8-----6-6-----5-5-|------10-10-----8-8-----6-6-5-5-----|
|*--7-7-------7-7-----7-7-----5-5-----|--7-7-------7-7-----7-7---------2-2-|
|*------------------------------------|------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------|------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------|------------------------------------|

I play the notes once in my head, but I play them twice with my hand.

So how does it works for experienced guitarists who can play 16th at tempo 200 for instance ? Each part is decomposed, then "compressed" ?
For instance a solo with several nice sweeps, rather than memorising each note, each part of the sweep is remembered as an arpeggio, so you may dicrease the data to remind from 16 sixteenth to let say 2 arpeggios ?
And that's where muscular reflexs are usefull, cuz' the hand automatically plays the arpeggio you have in mind.

And when singing along playing ? How do you handle that ?
I sometimes try, not much cuz' my voice sucks so I don't feel I'll ever need to sing, but as soon as there's a change in the strumming rythm, I'm off.

So that could mean I haven't practice the basics enough (scales and chords and arpeggios), that's quite possible. But I just wonder about the process "in the head of an experienced guitarist".

You sir just asked an awesome question.

Look at a guitarist like Yngwie Malmsteen. He's always been fast but has done the same solo on every song on every album so to speak. His thinking is more just routine instead of explorative and figuring out different ways to grow as a musician. Then look at somebody with the melodies of Allan Holdsworth....that guy is superior to just about all of the popular shredders you hear out there. Often enough a guitarist (Steve vai, John Petrucci, Rusty Cooley, Satch, whoever it is) will have repetitious phrasing while going up or down an mode and therefore the thought process is there but not so free as a musician like Holdsworth or John McLaughlin who really know how to step outside the box of thinking when it comes to patterns and repetitious phrasing. ....speed is one thing, but once you practive something enough the thinking isn't required to be so attentive on one sweep or phrase, it is only when you are learning it that it requires a lot of thinking...so I guess my point is to keep learning and don't start to plateau or you may find yourself in a rut?


EDIT***


Wow, I haven't bee nhere in a while...forgot that I had already respoinded to this post...and how the hell did both responses turn out so different!?!?

Sorry, i just noticed you said yo 'wished' you could play detox?

Thats one of the easier songs to play my man.
Try skeksis :S

EDIT***


Wow, I haven't bee nhere in a while...forgot that I had already respoinded to this post...and how the hell did both responses turn out so different!?!?