HEVYDEVY FORUMS

First of all, keep this in mind: beauty is in the eye of the beholder. This thread is NOT about how "beautiful" waxed legs, piercings, body building or scarification is, and if you feel like posting shit like "omg thats so sick bcuz it looks fuckin disgusting!!1" then please shut up.

This thread is about what is "socially accepted" pain and not. Many of the things we do to ourselves that fall into the category "beauty enhancement" involves some degree of pain. Waxing your legs hurt, plucking your nose hairs hurt, bodybuilding hurts, liposuction hurts, getting breast implants hurts, fixing your nose hurts, removing moles hurt.. Changing your body to what you define as "beautiful" will, most of the time, hurt.

I am interested in hearing what you people think about the following:

1. The guy in this thread (warning: pictures of a scarification, contains lots of blood) endured over two hours of continuous pain in order to mark his daughter's birthday. Would it be "better" if he got a tattoo with his daughter's name and birthday? Why?

2. Would it be less "sick" if he did his scarification with a local anesthetic? If yes; why. If no; why not?

Holy shit that is sick...but i believe people should be able to do whatever they want to do as long as it doesnt hurt anyone else so...

I agree that people should be able to do whatever they want to their body. I could get never go through something like that scarring thing, but if thats what he wanted to do then I don't disapprove of it.

Also it's worth noting that a lot of the time these kind of things aren't for looks but actually have a deeper meaning for the person getting them.

Interesting topic.

Well, to me, the ethics are: Don't hurt other people. But hurting yourself? If someone is determined to go through an expensive, risky and even painful process that makes him or her feel better about his/ her body afterwards, then it's a choice that, at the end of the day, is up to each person for him-/herself.

This, although being my main point of view, doesn't work without exceptions, of course. The first example that comes to my mind: A girl at the age of 15 thinks that her breasts are too small, her bottom too fat and her nose too "masculine". She wants to go through plastic surgery to fix those things. Whenever I hear such stories, my first thought is: This is sick. But then I feel sorry for people being so uncomfortable with themselves. I think most of us can at least to a certain extent relate to this, since I don't think that many people wouldn't change anything about their outward appearance if they could make it happen from one moment to the other. But as far as this example is concerned, it definitely crosses a line. Those people need to be protected - protected from the possibility to access those operations which might cause irreversible harm with ease and without any information about the risks, and especially to be protected from a fucked up world of mass media with talent-free starlents teaching them the wrong ideals. An ideal of beauty. An ideal that is set apart from the eye of the beholder, an ideal that is worth going through plastic surgery for it. Where was the vomit-smiley again?

When it comes to the aspect of "socially accepted pain", I think that, on the one hand, it's too easy nowadays to shape your body the way you want to. Still the same example: The development of plastic surgery during the last decades has been terrific, no doubt about that, but when the thought "I just need two thousand dollars to get new, bigger breasts" is so simple and realistic these days, the thoughts that should come first - "Am I really that unhappy with my body? And why am I so unhappy?" - are often forgotten. But on the other hand, the progress in plastic surgery has helped lots of people who had been terribly disfigured by accidents.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that there are always two sides to the story. When the effort and the process in order to enhance one's beauty and the result itself are no longer in a healthy relation, then it reaches the point where you call it "sick". But then again, everyone has to draw the line for himself.

Ok, enough babbling for now.

I draw the line at Boy George wannabes. I certainly wouldn't give myself a new face. I don't love my current one or anything, but it's the face I got because I have a mommy and a daddy and a granny and a grandaddy. So I voted Plastic Surgery as the point I draw the line.

Alright, if you think you're the wrong gender it's your own decision to go mangling your sex organs, but personally I wouldn't want to do it to myself. Both genders have their upsides. Men have the pleasure of deciding when they want to end sex, and women have eight or so g-spots. Even if you decide you're meant to be the opposite sex, it's not like an operation is going to give you the sex organs you need to be male/female; you may have a penis but you wont' be able to come/you may have a pussy but you can't have an orgasm. I say we were made whatever gender we were made and we might as well appreciate it while we have it.

And if I'm fat, it's due to overeating and it's fixable by mild but regular exercise and a healthier diet. Obesity is a fairly scary prospect and I can understand to an extent people who find have eating disorders and stuff finding it difficult to lose weight or become healthy, not everybody has that willpower. But this idea of size '0' and 'the perfect body' is kind of stupid. Okay, if you're fat lose weight, but if you're see-through maybe it's time you put on a little. I like my weight, for the most part. I'm kinda pudgy, but not to the point that shops don't stock jeans that fit me. My heart pumps at a nice average of 65bpm, so I'm not likely to drop dead anytime soon, be it due to obesity or starvation or a failed liposuction.

Branding is what farmers do to distinguish between cattle. I think that in itself is enough to rule it out for most people.

Implants, like necessary ones, I reckon are grand obviously. But those 'Wolverine Claws' that guy in the Scarification thread got put in are ridiculous. He isn't Wolverine, like. Alright if he admires Wolverine or whatever, but I admire Knuckles the Echidna and I don't give myself red skin. I suppose it was his body and his choice and so long as they're not doing any harm and he's happy with them, well and good. Just personally, they don't really do it for me.

Scarification is just thillyness, I think. I've got a big scar on my left elbow from a motorbike accident, and a fag burn on the same arm because.. somebody burned me, I suppose. Scars are something you get when your skin won't heal.. To me they're not the most appealing skin decoration. And the process of getting it, as shown in the thread; is rather unnecessarily gruesome. You'd want to be a fairly sadistic person by nature to take the art of ripping into people's flesh as a career, and likewise a fairly masochistic person to allow someone to rip into your flesh.

And like implants, amputation is obviously necessary if a limb or whatever is damaged sometimes and that's fine. But I can't imagine people hack off their limbs for the sake of their own shallow image desires? ..do they??

Sick? I'm not sure. But it's retarded right out the gate.

I don't find any of these "offensive"

There is actually a rare condition where people actually feel that they have to have a leg amputated i.e. it is horrible, ugly etc. Its an overwhelming urge to have a limb cut off. In some extreme cases, they have done the job themselves (not a great idea)

I saw a programme about this..very interesting. Some of these people spend their life searching for a Doctor who will carry out such an operation.

As for branding, tattoos, piercing etc. Its up to the person. You can drink yourself to death if you want, Im not going to stop you lol *last part is tongue in cheek*

I believe scarification is sick. My apologies if I offend anybody here. Self mutilation never really made lots of sense to me. Teenage girls do it because "it takes away their other pain inside their head", stuff like that. I know that there are some people who say they do it, and still have a great, happy life, but I'm sorry, I cannot understand how you can be happy with yourself and start hurting yourself.
If any of the things in the poll make people feel better, go ahead... it just seems to me these people are insecure, and will remain insecure, even if they get plastic surgery, or whatever.
Tattoo's are maybe a different subject. I've thought about taking a tattoo too, but I could not think of any way it would make my life or me as a person any better.
To me all these things seem like a waste of money.

OmFG Ôo

That must be fuckin' painful *o*
Skin removal ? Damn, just cuting is way too much xD

Course there are some pretty stupid comments, but amongst the direspectul blablah I have to agree that I don't feel like he did it "for his daughter", more for himself. It doesn't benefit her in any way for sure.
Well that's what one of the direspectful guy says, maybe the guy never said he did it FOR his daughter in the full meaning of this, haven't read the whole thing with attention.

Well, I'm not a "physical" type of person (yeah, I'm a powerful spirit who trancends reality and exists freely in the realm of immaterial ), I mean I don't see pain or physical resistance as an achievement. Never have. And never liked sport. Guys running 10km under the rain at 6AM every morning ? Fine if they like that, but never for me (sometimes I wish I was good at some sports, martial arts or somethin', but it's to late to reach a good level now and I have other priorities).
I prefere sensitive achievements (great music, paintings, whatever...), and it's even better if it's cooperative (poor joke avoided :p).

So all this "pain resistance" doesn't make much sens for me, kudos to him tough.

So according to this, in my PoV, in would be less sick if he did it with local anaesthesia.
He may be more a "physical" person and his PoV, looks like the pain was part of the deal. He explains it himself, he got anaesthesia for the metal stuff in his other arm, cuz' it's surgery and was aiming for the result, not the process, contrary to this scarified arm.

IMO he'll remember his daughter's 1st birthday as the most physical painful day of his life. In his mind he may remember it as a day where he felt proud.
I still fail to see the connexion with his daughter, except as time marker for "doing it", while the result is the same (almost) as if he got a tatoo, that wouldn't benefit his daughter neither.

Maybe that's the point of my reasonment : just cuz' it hurts more doesn't make it more valuable IMO. Just like a pasta necklace from your kid (for a woman ^^) is more valuable than a real necklace from some random guy who wants to have sex, and more if chemistry works (don't know how to say it in english, that's a French expression^^). Or more generally whatever handmade by your kid or loved-one is more valuable than anything else mass-produced by cheap labour, be it expensive.

He wanted to "mark" (literally) his daughter's birthday, good intention, for that he chose scarification, but anything else would be as much valuable (theoricaly) while probably less painful. IMHO^^.

Oh and plucking you nose hairs doesn't hurt that much in the end. You gotta do it frankly , rather than slowly

Maybe that's the point of my reasonment : just cuz' it hurts more doesn't make it more valuable IMO. Just like a pasta necklace from your kid (for a woman ^^) is more valuable than a real necklace from some random guy who wants to have sex, and more if chemistry works (don't know how to say it in english, that's a French expression^^). Or more generally whatever handmade by your kid or loved-one is more valuable than anything else mass-produced by cheap labour, be it expensive.

Well in this case I think tattoos are much more mass-produced than scarring your arm, so your analogy doesn't really work. It's a matter of "oh yeah I got this picture on my arm on my daughters 1st birthday" vs "i went through the most painful experience of my life for my daughter". I can see where he's coming with that. Not that I would ever do it myself.

take a guess

I dont think its sick at all. You get one chance to live inside a body you might as well take every oppertunity to modify it however you like. So long as you are doing it for yourself not for anybody else who gives a crap right?

Myself i couldnt care less what people do and deeming it "sick" seems a bit bizarre as what difference does it make to you anyhow. A lot of my friends and myself to a certain extent have piercings tattoos and even subdermal implants. Its one of those things it either interests you or frightens you. I dont think its fair to stand back and say somebody has gone to far simply because you dont idenitfy with something in the same way as somebody else?

i thin your body is your body so you can do what you wish with it as long as no one else gets hurt... however i do think that after a point wanting to see your body a certain way becomes illness, such as plastic surgery to the point of absurdity and amputation... also that scar work was poorly done if it bled too much, you never have to cut that deep just adgitate the wound after, and i thought it looked crap. but thats all just opinion

sorry fro the poor grammer spelling and ideas i just got up.

It's a personal thing - see tattoo thread.

But if it harms your body, it's getting out of hand and too un-natural. There is a reason why our body sends signals of pain or indisposition to our brain. Deliberatley damaging the own body is perverse and psychopathic IMO. Same with implants and cosmetic surgery (with the exception of extreme cases).

It's a sign of the distancing effect from our own origin and nature, but not a sign of our aspiration to reach a higher level of consciousness as an individual and as a species.

Das Schuetzenfest wrote:It's a personal thing - see tattoo thread.

But if it harms your body, it's getting out of hand and too un-natural. There is a reason why our body sends signals of pain or indisposition to our brain. Deliberatley damaging the own body is perverse and psychopathic IMO. Same with implants and cosmetic surgery (with the exception of extreme cases).

It's a sign of the distancing effect from our own origin and nature, but not a sign of our aspiration to reach a higher level of consciousness as an individual and as a species.

While I tend to agree with you, and certainly the spirit in which you probably intended what you are saying, I am going to disagree with you on one point.

There is nothing really natural or unnatural about body modification. What I mean is this: your culture and my culture, for the most part, don't have body modification as normal part of life, so therefore it wouldn't be seen as "normal" by you or I. (I am not saying we are the same, I am just saying that our vantage points don't differ much. I wouldn't presume to know you that well, though I wouldn't be against it, considering what type of person you come across here.) SOme cultures, though, use the "fight or flight" response in our bodies as something to overcome, and use body modification as a means to do that. Now, I am not knowledgeable on this, but, I seem to recall that some Pacific Island societies having tattoo application as a means of doing that. How they apply the tattoo is where the pain thing comes it...instead of a needle, they use a multi-pointed instrument that isn't as efficient, and is reportedly many times more painful a means of receiving a tattoo than the usual way. If the person receiving the tattoo makes it through okay, and most do, then it is a rite of passage that they have made, with the tattoo as a permanent reminder. Same as some African cultures where they have elongated necks or ears or lips, because of body modification. What I mean to say, in a nutshell, is that what may seem unnatural to some, may be perfectly natural to another.

I don't think there's anything sick about modifying your body, I am more worried about WHY some people do it. Far be it from me to judge when and what is okay for someone to do to themselves, if they aren't killing themselves or hurting others.