HEVYDEVY FORUMS

Since I (unintentionally) derailed all discussion in the Deconstruction topic with banter about Steven Wilson; all that off-topic discussion now has a home!

Anyone who wants to discuss...

*Steven himself
*His music
*Anything he's produced/mixed/mastered
*Past/Forthcoming releases with his name on them
*Anything else related to him

...should do so here. For those who don't know, Wilson is a British musician behind Prog Rock/Metal outfit Porcupine Tree, as well as myriad of side-projects and collaborations including Blackfield, Bass Communion, No-Man, Continuum, Storm Corrosion, IEM and more.

SW has an integrity I admire and respect. His anti-iPod stance and his mastering opinions really touch me (although I disagree with the former), and his desire for perfection shows on all his albums.
Deadwing is my all-time favourite SW album, due to its emotion and its range of genres covered. The atmosphere beats FOABP in terms of its tendency to change tone and mood, something which FOABP doesn't really do. It's all dark and hopeless, while Deadwing goes from the depths of despair to joy unparalleled.

As for his work with Opeth, well fuck, what is there to be said? His mixing, vocal and mellotron work captures the essence of Opeth perfectly, in my opinion. His voice and Mike's voice just go together like bread and butter. Looking forward to the next album for this reason, with Steve returning to mixing duties.

Wow, that was long.

/rant.

I don't know how (or am too lazy to learn how) to quote in different threads so whomever asked me the questions about drummers and other stuff:

Re: Gavin Harrison
Clearly the superior drummer. No argument from me whatsoever. He is the only reason I enjoy the In Absentia through FOABP run. The first chance I ever had to see PT was in Toronto on the IA tour. I saw them at a club above a Hard Rock Cafe with maybe 25 other people. SW even commented on how small the venue (implying the crowd) was. He was apologetic because there were no room for screens that they tour with in the setup. Anyways, that was my introduction to Gavin. Standing 15' away from him and watching the set, I completely ignored the rest of the band. As they were only playing a few tracks from IA, I had a great chance to hear a bunch of the older material with Gavin playing. Even saying that I prefer all the material (with the exception of The Incident) pre-IA, every song I've heard Gavin play has been an improvement.

Re: Heavy parts on The Incident
I find the newer material is not quite as severe as say "Futile". Let me ask, have you ever seen the video of the Nearfest performance in 2001 I believe it was? Incidentally, that is easily my favourite PT recording. Anyways, SW was his usual pretentious self, performing barefoot on a carpet with all the silly had gestures and effeminate aura in spades. Unbelievably, he was wearing a cutoff babydoll T shirt. If you think the guy is borderline effiminate at the best of times, you should see him on the Nearfest boot. I just can't shake that picture... It's with me everytime I hear the band. Whenever I hear the faux-heavy, it just makes me laugh at the insincerity of it all. The whole era reeks of looking for Ackerfeldt's (sp?) approval. I doubt that is even the case but I cannot hear the music without the mental imagery of some tiny, effiminate Brit trying to be "metal". I thoroughly believe that SW was trying to market himself to a different generation, culture, genre or demographic for lack of a better term. The Incident, to me, sounds like a perfect blend of the old PT and the "heavy" PT. I am a metalhead through and through, however, I enjoy nearly all genres of music. I was raised on Blues and Rock and gravitated towards Classical and Jazz for school (used to play classical guitar) and got into all kinds of heavy music as it was happening. I can appreciate any style of music, I just don't like to hear music that seems to have an alterior motive. That's just the way I feel about IA through FOABP.

Antiyou wrote:Whenever I hear the faux-heavy, it just makes me laugh at the insincerity of it all. The whole era reeks of looking for Ackerfeldt's (sp?) approval. I doubt that is even the case but I cannot hear the music without the mental imagery of some tiny, effiminate Brit trying to be "metal".

Do you think it is faux-heavy or insincere because it is in contrast to the older PT stuff? Or because he doesn't look metal? If PT had kept producing old-school prog indefinately I think that they would have then become 'faux-prog' as they would only be meeting the demands of their fans. I think metal in general is very 'faux-heavy', music that is pushed to an extreme in order to achieve a particular sound or emotion, not because the musicians themselves have 'metal' lives.

I appreciate that their signing to Roadrunner (along with Opeth) sniffs aboutwhiffs of a targetted marketing direction but I think that SW would have ended up making music like this regardless.

I don't think PT are trying to appease metal fans with their new direction because it is generally not very heavy. I would say that they sound more on record like they do live these days, where everything is loud and heavy etc.

I love The Incident too, and I agree that it is a much better blend of what the last few albums have touched upon.

Antiyou wrote:Re: Heavy parts on The Incident
I find the newer material is not quite as severe as say "Futile". Let me ask, have you ever seen the video of the Nearfest performance in 2001 I believe it was? Incidentally, that is easily my favourite PT recording. Anyways, SW was his usual pretentious self, performing barefoot on a carpet with all the silly had gestures and effeminate aura in spades. Unbelievably, he was wearing a cutoff babydoll T shirt. If you think the guy is borderline effiminate at the best of times, you should see him on the Nearfest boot. I just can't shake that picture... It's with me everytime I hear the band. Whenever I hear the faux-heavy, it just makes me laugh at the insincerity of it all. The whole era reeks of looking for Ackerfeldt's (sp?) approval. I doubt that is even the case but I cannot hear the music without the mental imagery of some tiny, effiminate Brit trying to be "metal". I thoroughly believe that SW was trying to market himself to a different generation, culture, genre or demographic for lack of a better term. The Incident, to me, sounds like a perfect blend of the old PT and the "heavy" PT. I am a metalhead through and through, however, I enjoy nearly all genres of music. I was raised on Blues and Rock and gravitated towards Classical and Jazz for school (used to play classical guitar) and got into all kinds of heavy music as it was happening. I can appreciate any style of music, I just don't like to hear music that seems to have an alterior motive. That's just the way I feel about IA through FOABP.

Totally get what you're saying; though my opinion on the heavier bits is definitely different than yours, obviously. I'm pretty sure Steven's work (including PT) got 'heavier' around the time of IA because he discovered groups like Meshuggah; not just because he produced Blackwater Park. I've never had an issue with any of PT's heavier material, myself, but I respect that it might strike some people that way... and that Wilson can come off as pretty pretentious; even though I don't believe him to be. And, same for enjoying all kinds of different music, as well as disliking music that feels like it's being made with an ulterior motive. I guess Wilson just strikes me as so passionate and frank about his work that it's never come across to me as forced... but as we've both said many times now, to each and his own.

Funny thing is, I actually think SOME of The Incident's more 'metal' songs (Circle of Manias, for example) come closer to sounding like rip-offs of other bands than anything before! CoM just strikes me as Meshuggah-worship; it's just two minutes of chunky, angular riffs and odd rhythms... that sounds exactly like the aforementioned band, really. Even though it's a good listen, it's too short to actually go anywhere and I feel it does nothing to add to the overall 55 minute epic the album's supposed to be. That's my whole problem with TI, really; it just feels... half-baked, in a lot of places. Octane Twisted strikes me as a little messy, in it's composition; Kneel and Disconnect could have been FANTASTIC, but it's another track that's never given the time to develop; Great Expectations, Your Unpleasant Family and The Yellow Windows of the Evening Train are all too short to have any real impact; The Seance just feels like a poor, underdeveloped coda to Octane Twisted, etc, etc. Yes, it sounds like I don't care for any of it, but that's not the case. Just gave it a full spin yesterday, actually - it's a great record, just... far below what I've come to see as PT's standards. But, I think I've said enough on it, now...

Blazingmonga wrote:

Antiyou wrote:Whenever I hear the faux-heavy, it just makes me laugh at the insincerity of it all. The whole era reeks of looking for Ackerfeldt's (sp?) approval. I doubt that is even the case but I cannot hear the music without the mental imagery of some tiny, effiminate Brit trying to be "metal".

Do you think it is faux-heavy or insincere because it is in contrast to the older PT stuff? Or because he doesn't look metal? If PT had kept producing old-school prog indefinately I think that they would have then become 'faux-prog' as they would only be meeting the demands of their fans. I think metal in general is very 'faux-heavy', music that is pushed to an extreme in order to achieve a particular sound or emotion, not because the musicians themselves have 'metal' lives.

Very interesting comment about metal in general; I agree with you entirely.

...on topic but not concerning the present discussion; anyone here listen to Bass Communion? Wilson said he's working on a new album called 'Cenotaph' (another word for monument, I guess) and that it's supposed to be a loose sequel to Ghosts on Magnetic Tape. Just trying to figure out if there's any expectations for it, or if anyone here even listens to BC at all. A lot of people think he makes great ambient/chill out music under that moniker; a lot of people seem to think it's just noise... I have yet to get a BC album proper, myself, but it's just because I've been so wrapped up in everything else lately, musically. I have no problems appreciating/listening to new age/ambient stuff, so... for anyone who's a fan; what's a good place to start?

I love his production work with Opeth and I really liked In Absentia. I've heard pieces of Stars Die, Fear of a Blank Planet, among others that I've really liked, but nothing that really has captured my attention.

It's interesting to see how PT changed from a very Floyd-influenced band, to an industrial-tinged band which has lost almost all of its psychedelia. While I'm a fan of Deadwing, the parts where it gets 'heavy' seem uninspired and generic, due to Steven's relative inexperience with heavy music. He has a strong base in prog, and will always have such a base.

Of what I've heard of the Incident, it sounds like he tried to return to his proggy roots, but didn't really get there. That said, Insurgentes was a great example of the heavy music which SW writes naturally, not necessarily being aurally heavy, but emotionally so.

Blazingmonga wrote:

Antiyou wrote:Whenever I hear the faux-heavy, it just makes me laugh at the insincerity of it all. The whole era reeks of looking for Ackerfeldt's (sp?) approval. I doubt that is even the case but I cannot hear the music without the mental imagery of some tiny, effiminate Brit trying to be "metal".

Do you think it is faux-heavy or insincere because it is in contrast to the older PT stuff? Or because he doesn't look metal? If PT had kept producing old-school prog indefinately I think that they would have then become 'faux-prog' as they would only be meeting the demands of their fans. I think metal in general is very 'faux-heavy', music that is pushed to an extreme in order to achieve a particular sound or emotion, not because the musicians themselves have 'metal' lives.

I'm just not convinced. Without Gavin picking up the slack, it would be pretty rudimentary. Honestly, focus on the guitar only. I can't speculate about what they would have become without the IA - FOABP "heaviness" but the jump from Lightbulb Sun to In Absentia sounds to me like a guy that got to the metal party late and tried (unsuccessfully IMO) to incorporate it into his sound. The next two were extrapolations of the same theme (again unsuccessfully IMO) with some bright spots mixed throughout. It sounds like I'm trashing the albums entirely but there are some exceptional songs and hearing them in the DVD-A format is a treat.
I'm not going to expand on the "look" issue. I can't think of a way to articulate my opinion without coming off as a dick. It's just a sense from being a longtime fan of PT and metal and seeing the material in question performed live. This board is a little too PC for me to express my opinions in writing the way I would verbally.

Jaglavak wrote:
Totally get what you're saying; though my opinion on the heavier bits is definitely different than yours, obviously. I'm pretty sure Steven's work (including PT) got 'heavier' around the time of IA because he discovered groups like Meshuggah; not just because he produced Blackwater Park. I've never had an issue with any of PT's heavier material, myself, but I respect that it might strike some people that way... and that Wilson can come off as pretty pretentious; even though I don't believe him to be. And, same for enjoying all kinds of different music, as well as disliking music that feels like it's being made with an ulterior motive. I guess Wilson just strikes me as so passionate and frank about his work that it's never come across to me as forced... but as we've both said many times now, to each and his own.

Funny thing is, I actually think SOME of The Incident's more 'metal' songs (Circle of Manias, for example) come closer to sounding like rip-offs of other bands than anything before! CoM just strikes me as Meshuggah-worship; it's just two minutes of chunky, angular riffs and odd rhythms... that sounds exactly like the aforementioned band, really. Even though it's a good listen, it's too short to actually go anywhere and I feel it does nothing to add to the overall 55 minute epic the album's supposed to be. That's my whole problem with TI, really; it just feels... half-baked, in a lot of places. Octane Twisted strikes me as a little messy, in it's composition; Kneel and Disconnect could have been FANTASTIC, but it's another track that's never given the time to develop; Great Expectations, Your Unpleasant Family and The Yellow Windows of the Evening Train are all too short to have any real impact; The Seance just feels like a poor, underdeveloped coda to Octane Twisted, etc, etc. Yes, it sounds like I don't care for any of it, but that's not the case. Just gave it a full spin yesterday, actually - it's a great record, just... far below what I've come to see as PT's standards. But, I think I've said enough on it, now...

It took me a while to get into The Incident. I don't think it works without listening to it as a whole. It's not my favourite of their works but live it flows very well. I also think it makes a cohesive setlist when combined with material from Signify and Lightbulb Sun. I mention Mike from Opeth because I think he played a significant role in SW's foray into heavy music. The timing of Blackwater Park and Mike's outspoken admiration of PT certainly coincide with IA's heavier turn. I thoroughly agree with the Meshuggah-worship. It sounds like SW was into some trendy heavy music and emulated it in PT.

Octillus wrote:I love his production work with Opeth and I really liked In Absentia. I've heard pieces of Stars Die, Fear of a Blank Planet, among others that I've really liked, but nothing that really has captured my attention.

Stars Die is a terrible place to start for someone just getting into PT. It would be like getting Voyage 34 or Metanoia as an introduction. One is a remix album of a psyhcedelic jam and the other is instrumental jams from Signify writing sessions. The most straightforward album IMO would be Lightbulb Sun. I would recommend that and Signify as the best of old PT.