It is a bad thing. I'm stuck outside of a uni. because I cant afford it. I hate that I cant afford it, and if the government does do something about funding for it of course I will take advantage of it. Do I want them to do that? No. Would I take advantage of it if they did? I said so already.

Most people view capitalism as "greedy" but they dont realize that it is based upon the entrepreneur. Small businesses start up and can become bigger over time. In essence, capitalism is an ideal form of economy, it allows for anyone to start a business for their own welfare. Disagree if you'd like, but in the end it can definitely work.

True, a lot of companies have gotten too big and their CEO's have gotten far too greedy, but why should someone who has more than likely busted their ass to get where they are be told they cant bring home a big paycheck? To me it sounds like jealousy from the lower class. Sure I'd absolutely love to make a pay check like the CEO of GM motors, will I ever? Probably not, but its not my place to try and take away someone else's money if they made it.

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. These are the things all American's are told they have, with the docking of paychecks and increased taxes, the Pursuit of Happiness cant be obtained as easily. We wont have enough money to buy a decent house or support our families. Liberty, our Constitutional rights are under constant attack. Life, I guess you could say this goes along with both health care and with our right to do as we please.

Either way, America is not as it once was...And it would be incredible if the rest of the country/world would see this.

If intelligent people with masses of potential end up stuck in dead end jobs, because they come from a poor background, then that's an extremely bad thing in my opinion.

My brother is a very successful business owner. He just has alot more drive than i to have bettered himself. He worked his way up from the bottom. As i said before, it is possible for me to go to school and get an education and work hard and become successful, but it will require alot of sacrifice. America is the land of oppurtunity, and anything can be done if you put your mind to it. Everyone has different views on what works and what doesnt...

Either way, America is not as it once was...And it would be incredible if the rest of the country/world would see this.

The problem is most people dont seem to care.

Most people view capitalism as "greedy" but they dont realize that it is based upon the entrepreneur. Small businesses start up and can become bigger over time. In essence, capitalism is an ideal form of economy, it allows for anyone to start a business for their own welfare. Disagree if you'd like, but in the end it can definitely work.

True, a lot of companies have gotten too big and their CEO's have gotten far too greedy, but why should someone who has more than likely busted their ass to get where they are be told they cant bring home a big paycheck? To me it sounds like jealousy from the lower class. Sure I'd absolutely love to make a pay check like the CEO of GM motors, will I ever? Probably not, but its not my place to try and take away someone else's money if they made it.

I'm not arguing against capitalism, I think a capitalist system provides the best opportunity for people to better themselves. I just think that poor people should have access to a bit of help in order to help them succeed under a capitalist system. I'm not arguing for communism or anything, I think that people who are successful are entitled to the fruits of that success. I just don't think this is necessarily mutually exclusive with trying to make the system a bit fairer.

Not everyone has the means or ability to start their own successful business. I'd say the ability to start and run a successful business is something that's out of the reach of even most intelligent people. Yeah, a lot of people think CEO's are greedy, and that it's insane that they should be able to demand that amount of money, but I think most of these people are unaware of the skill it requires to be a successful CEO. This is where I start to disagree with people who are further to the left than me.

I'm sure we could take less taxes from rich people if we went back to the old days where your parents had to pay for you to go to school, and if they couldn't afford it, then tough shit, you went to work in a factory. But this would further increase wasteage of intelligent people with potential.

The crux of my argument is that ideally, we should find some compromise between allowing successful people to be successful, and minimising the number of intelligent people that are wasted by being stuck in dead-end jobs, due to their background. I think America has this balance too far in one direction, the UK possibly has it too far in the other.

I see where you're coming from, and I do agree with you on a lot of that.

My take on people of lesser wealth is that they should get the help they need to get a decent job. No man should be fed without working in my opinion(unless he cant work that is, due to a disability in which case it is totally understandable to not have to work)

Most poor people in America are absolutely capable of working, its the fact that they are usually lazy. Most impoverished people in America are on welfare and live off the government already. The government should be trying to help these people get jobs, not spoon feed them their money.

Just to get my point across, I dont think any person should be given money for nothing. I think every person should try to get a job. I understand it's hard to find a job now, I actually want out of mine to find something else, but some day's I'm actually happy to have a job making the money I do.

Call me harsh, I dont care...

I don't think people should be able to stay on welfare because they can't be bothered working, but I do think that a lot of poorer people do need that safety net for when they genuinely can't find work.

In theory, under the British system if you're capable of work, then you have to show them that you're actively seeking work in order to keep receiving benefits. In practice, the system isn't very efficient, and extremely easy to abuse. I can say from my own experience of having been unemployed in the UK, that it would have been extremely easy to stay on benefits if I had wanted to scam the system.

To start, I will say I skipped most of the thread. Second, AlucardXIX is now without a doubt the most awesome person on the forum. Third, the ONLY time that capitalism has been tried in civilized history (and how briefly it was), had the greatest financial growth in ALL classes. And I do not just mean massive inflation causing huge increase in fiat currency. So, if it's worked better than anything else ever has (save for the recent state of Norway, though I hold the fact that they are the most geographically lucky people imaginable responsible and believe it would be even better without the socialism), why has it never been given a second chance?
The united states system for the last 60 years has been corporatism, where major companies already in place are given special benefits, stomping out the small business thing mentioned at the top of this page. I suggest reading For a New Liberty, Murray Rothbard is so sexy ;P

Haha thanks man.

Corporatism is the best way to put it. Companies try to monopolize any market they can, and in some cases end up in an oligopoly situation where only a few companies that already have a big standing can compete(see car manufacturers)

America is the longest standing Democratic Republic and Capitalist society in history, over 200 years. I just dont want to see it lost to the standard of socialism most of the world already has...

We totally need a self sufficient mountain compound for when things go tits up.

I'm not arguing against capitalism, I think a capitalist system provides the best opportunity for people to better themselves. I just think that poor people should have access to a bit of help in order to help them succeed under a capitalist system.

The poor in America are a different breed of poor than most others in the world in that in the majority of cases its brought on by more by lack of will then circumstance. The whole taking-advantage-of-welfare issue has been brought up so I won't dwell on it. But here is where religion comes into play and this will bring part of the argument full circle. Religion in America is a VERY independent institution, government has virtually no control over it (the same can't be said in the visa versa direction but I'll leave it at that). And because religion is so independent and diverse, its very healthy here and not at all like the culturally dead state churches in Europe. Now what I'm getting at is because its so viable it acts out bigtime on its beliefs, one of which being compassion. The churches have, since day one, because of this deep compassion and pity, taken care of the TRULY poor, the people who ARE there because of circumstance and not lethargy. I think if theres an institution that should take care of the poor, it should be the churches and NOT the government for many reasons, among them:

A) The "taxpayers" of the church pay willingly.
B) The "taxpayers" of the church have more of a say in where their money goes, they decide which cause affects them more directly or otherwise deserves the most attention
C) Conversely, churches can decide (very quickly) which programs are wasteful and don't deserve their resources
D) Direct participation in the causees they support, thus
E) Less bureaucracy, resulting in a more efficient distribution of funds

Compare this to government who takes money from unwilling taxpayers, showers it on whoever they see fit, and continue showering it on programs that don't work because of lack of direct involvement and oversight. Additional money is lost to government officials through the bureaucracy.

Basically my whole point is let the willing and compassionate institutions take care of the poor, not the government. Government aid is a golden pair of handcuffs, to both the unwilling benefactors and those who benefit, while churches give freely and ask nothing in return. Churches also provide more uplifting motivation with their aid programs then a government paycheck ever will.

And I'm a Nietzschean Antichrist.

Churches aside, don't forget the generosity of the American individual, we're among the most giving in the world.

This is a great thread, btw. Y'all are very civil and e-articulate. Hope it keeps going.

Awesome points jack, even for being against religion! lol

Yes JackTheRipper, i agree. Since the US is way overpopluated, its lost the aspect of where church and community take care of their own. People have handed over that control to the government, thus giving them more and more power. People always look for handouts, cause they just wanna take the easy way out. The wasteful spending of my hard earned tax money is atrocious.

America did not become the great nation it once was being socialist.

Anyone who thinks anything would be different with McCain has their head up their ass. I'm not an Obama supporter. In fact, I do not support any candidate from any party. The political system has been a sham since WWI. Any number of google searches or (if kids remember) trips to the library can back this up. What you watch on television is carefully scripted theatre. All the news you are exporting to other countries right now are opinion pieces on the 160mil bonuses for AIG execs. Number 1... opinion pieces are not news. Number 2... 160mil is a proverbial drop in the bucket comparatively with all of the other issues going on right now. Your gov't is enslaving you and has been for the last 60+ yrs. Problem is, with the interwebs, they are on the cusp of being caught but, I fear things are too far along to be corrected at this point.

To those that believe religion is not the driving force of politics, look up AIPAC and open your eyes. Before anyone else says it, I am far from an anti-semite. I dislike everyone equally. If more people would reject political correctness in favour of rational, analytical discussion, maybe people wouldn't be so afraid to address the GIANT PINK ELEPHANT that is destroying America.

I'm not hypocritical enough to believe my gov't is any better in Canada. I understand completely that we have just been along for the ride. The trouble here is, we're on the verge of losing as much, if not more freedoms than our American neighbours. In fact, should current plans continue to unfold without the attention of the media, we may in fact lose our sovereignty. Paul Martin and GWB started a plan that is going to drastically change the face of North America. Nobody in the media seems to care and the public is as apathetic as they've ever been.

Finally, I really do miss GWB. We're never going to get the incredible sound bytes out of Obama that we were fortunate enough to have with GWB. Parties are totally irrelevant at this point so I don't even consider people's partisan attitiudes. Remember, since it is all theatre anyways, you might as well find something to enjoy about the show.

I'm not a McCain supporter but at this point his spending freeze idea doesn't sound as crazy as it did during the debates, nor does his veto-every-earmarked-bill policy.

On the plus side, we don't have to worry about Sarah Palin inadvertently starting WW3 by pressing the button when looking for a red crayon to finish her colouring in.