I'm not posting "learn to live with it" anything. I'm making fun of your ridiculous "Europeans don't understand because they don't have the FREEDOM we have in America-YEAAAH" patter, because it's pretty hilarious. Shit like that is the reason that Americans are (unfairly) stereotyped and made fun of.

Though it is the truth, on both parts. One, you dont know what it's like living in America, dont act like you do. And two, yes it has because rather ridiculous. You mistook everything I've been saying as that stereotypical banter.

Read my last post again, the part about the Constitution mostly, then do some research. Then post here again.

As I say, it depends on what you define as "freedom". In many ways, Americans are less free than people in other countries (of course the opposite is true, in other ways they are more free, the first and second amendment for example). This is what makes the whole "the rest of the world doesn't understand because they don't have our freedom" schtick pretty ridiculous.

As for the constitution, it seems to me that a lot of Americans are far too blinded by partisan politics, and will completely ignore really dodgy shit that the government does, provided that it's their party they're being fucked by, and not the other one. I see a lot of American conservatives moaning about Obama, not so many complaining about the erosion of freedoms that the Bush administration was responsible for. (Although to be fair, I have seen a lot of Americans saying that they actually voted for Obama, because they were fed up of the pandering to the religious right and erosion of freedoms that happened under Bush's watch)

With regards to bailing out banks, I don't like it, but I don't really see what the alternative is. Banks being allowed to fail isn't particularly good for peoples' trust in the banking system, and it is important that people have confidence in the banking system. The great depression was exacerbated by runs on banks if I recall correctly.

Well. First off if by "erosion of freedom" you mean the wire tapping done by the Bush Admin? Obama has done nothing to change that, in fact he deemed it "necessary" before he even took office.

Bush is also to blame for the up sizing of our government. I dont believe either party is right. The republicans are being shut out by the majority leaders, the democrats, and the democrats wont listen to the people they represent. So therefore our government is out of control. They've taken the whole thing for themselves. Our country was founded on a government "for the people, of the people." The "people" seem to have no say anymore, which is exactly what our Constitution was set forth to preserve.

I apologize if I sounded stereotypical, but at least you agree that things are different in America.

On another note, neither one of us can call the other wrong for our views on "Freedom". We are both entitled to our opinions regardless of which might be "right" or "wrong". Just because I think one "freedom" is less relevant than say, my voice being heard by my congressman, doesn't mean I am right or you are. Each to his own.

Ah, your position is different from what I thought it would be. Your "Dont even think about blaming this on Bush" comment made me think you were going to be one of those types that is completely blinded to wrong doing on the Republican side.

Regarding freedom, I have a lot of respect for the American first amendment, and I wish we had guaranteed protection for freedom of speech over here. For the most part, we're pretty free from censorship over here, but there have been a few things that have pissed me off, such as the BBFC attempting to ban Manhunt 2, or the government hinting at filtering the internet. That and the government's attempts to bring in ID cards, they can get right tae fuck on that one.

Ah, your position is different from what I thought it would be. Your "Dont even think about blaming this on Bush" comment made me think you were going to be one of those types that is completely blinded to wrong doing on the Republican side.

Regarding freedom, I have a lot of respect for the American first amendment, and I wish we had guaranteed protection for freedom of speech over here. For the most part, we're pretty free from censorship over here, but there have been a few things that have pissed me off, such as the BBFC attempting to ban Manhunt 2, or the government hinting at filtering the internet. That and the government's attempts to bring in ID cards, they can get right tae fuck on that one.

Well that's the thing, our first amendment has almost no bearing anymore. The other guy, dont remember his name, posted about Ron Paul supporters being considered domestic terrorists. When a differing viewpoint than the current administration is taken that seriously, our rights are under attack. Censorship is most definitely a violation of the first amendment, but I promise you a lot of republicans are against censorship, it's the democrats(see Pelosi for example) who believe we need to censor things. (and no not all republicans are for no censorship, a lot are...I think censorship is absolutely a violation of the first amendment.)

Pelosi and the Obama admin are also taking about reinstating the "Fariness doctrine" which is a MAJOR violation of the first amendment. It makes it so any outspoken person on either side(read: republicans who speak out) are forced to have an opposing view point on their shows. This would mean people like Rush Limbaugh(love him or hate him) would be basically censored, again infringing his right to freedom of speech.

I dont believe either party is innocent, I am more for the republicans on this matter though because they are being shut out, silenced, and more so they seem to have more respect for our constitutional rights than most of the democrats in power do.

Obviously my view will be a bit slanted because I don't live in America, but my impression as a Brit, is that the Republicans can be just as bad when it comes to respect for freedom of speech, especially the religious right.

Certainly, freedom of religion seems to be something that is under threat by the religious right.

Being honest, I'm tempted to move to America in the next couple of years, as my line of work makes this feasible. The one thing that will make it a difficult decision, is that religion seems to have a hell of a lot more power in the US, to an extent that is potentially dangerous in my opinion, compared to the UK. Which is ironic, considering that we have a state religion, rather than separation of church and state.

Obviously my view will be a bit slanted because I don't live in America, but my impression as a Brit, is that the Republicans can be just as bad when it comes to respect for freedom of speech, especially the religious right.

Certainly, freedom of religion seems to be something that is under threat by the religious right.

Being honest, I'm tempted to move to America in the next couple of years, as my line of work makes this feasible. The one thing that will make it a difficult decision, is that religion seems to have a hell of a lot more power in the US, to an extent that is potentially dangerous in my opinion, compared to the UK. Which is ironic, considering that we have a state religion, rather than separation of church and state.

It's really not as bad as you'd think. There are advocacy groups, but no one really forces it on you. Catholics might try, as will Jehovah's Witness's, but you can always say "no" and they should leave you alone.

Honestly, anyone worried about religion in America is a bit mislead by the thought of the freedom. It's true that it does play a part in politics and everything else, but it really isn't as strong as you may think.

This is a great thread, very interesting read.

i have to say im very concerned about America. i consider myself independent, but i lean more towards conservatism. It just seems to me that weve been exposed to so much liberal propeganda over the years, via tv (ie news) and schools. Everyone today is raised in day care centers and in broken homes. Noone takes the initiative to raise their kids to have good morals and values. So its "cool" to be liberal and being conservative is almost frowned upon. Its become extremely lopsided. Obama says the constitution is "fundamentally flawed". Like we can just totally disregard what our country is all about. What our forefathers fought and died for. Obamas ideas about the economy are ass backwards. It should be common knowledge that we the people are responsible for the economy, not the government. The only way that they can stimulate the economy is to give our money back to us. The "trickle down effect" could actually work. If you give tax breaks to big corporations, then they can have more money to spend and expand their business, create new jobs, and pay their employees better. The only problem with this is, the greedy ceos keep it for themselves. id be all for a flat tax, as if you work your ass off and become successful, you should not be punished by giving half your paycheck to the government. Our freedoms are slowly being taken away from us, and noone seems to care. Theyd prefer the government take care of them cause they are too lazy and irresponsible to do anything for themselves. Its always interesting to see outside perspectives of our country, but theyre usually skewed. It always seems that foreign countries have nothing but negative things to say about us and especially about the Bush administration. i think the recession will get way worse before it gets better, and i highly doubt it will get better under Obamas reign. i see our country headed towards socialism, and in many ways it already is. i would just like to be able to live the way i was intended to.

Sorry about the rant, but politics is always a touchy subject for me. *awaiting insult onslaught*

Who needs super powers?? Superman!

It's really not as bad as you'd think. There are advocacy groups, but no one really forces it on you. Catholics might try, as will Jehovah's Witness's, but you can always say "no" and they should leave you alone.

Honestly, anyone worried about religion in America is a bit mislead by the thought of the freedom. It's true that it does play a part in politics and everything else, but it really isn't as strong as you may think.

It's not so much people proselyting on the street I'm talking about, it's things like attempts to get intelligent design taught in schools in a few American states. Even after it has failed, how many American schools have to put stickers on their textbooks claiming that "evolution is only a theory"?

Then there's the whole gay marriage ban in California, which is primarily based on religious people legislating their views. To me, this goes against the spirit of separation of church and state, even if it doesn't violate the letter of the law.

Its always interesting to see outside perspectives of our country, but theyre usually skewed. It always seems that foreign countries have nothing but negative things to say about us and especially about the Bush administration.

As a Brit, I view America as our little brother who has got into steroids. He's big and strong, but sometimes he gets the 'roid rage and acts like a dick. On the whole though, he's a good guy. It seems to me that a lot of Americans take criticism of America very personally, and think we all hate you or something.

But yeah, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a fan of Bush outside of the US.

As for people being too lazy to take care of themselves, I think that's an unfair generalisation. My personal view is that society should be a meritocracy, where success is based on intelligence and hard work. However, expecting everyone to be able to pull themselves up "by their bootstraps" is not particularly reasonable, or realistic. I think some balance has to be achieved. I have a good job, but I think a lot of that is due to the opportunities I've been given living in the UK. it's conjecture, but coming from a working class background, I don't think I'd have been as successful growing up in the US as in the UK. Would my father have been able to afford health insurance in the US? Would we have been bankrupted when he had his heart attack? Would I have had my university fees paid for me?

I think I do owe a lot of my success to the fact that the government was there to lend a helping hand when it was needed. I think if I'd been born in the US, I'd probably be working in McDonalds right now. That said, I think our welfare system goes too far in the other direction, and it's far too easy for people who don't want to work to abuse the system.

Not sure if this is true, but I've heard that Americans actually pay more per-head for healthcare than countries with "socialised medicine", and that even people who have health insurance can end up bankrupted from medical costs, especially when their insurance company gives them the shaft and refuses to pay for something. Seems to me like you're paying more, getting less, but refusing to change it because SOCIALISM THE RED MENACE !

My opinion is that going for an entirely conservative approach is shooting yourself in the foot, as you're not making the most of people as a resource. If someone that had the potential to be a great scientist, or programmer, or engineer, ends up working in McDonalds because they didn't get a good start in life, then that's a big loss to everyone.

Just my two cents. I don't have any particular political affiliation, I think both sides of the political spectrum have some good ideas, but that those who venture too far left or right tend to be batshit insane! In particular, I think people on the left need to recognise that people who work hard deserve the reward they get, and people on the right need to recognise that not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and that sometimes it's OK for people to ask for help.

Well most people outside the US have to base their views of our country on our government and media. Which may or may not be the majority view. i for one work in a warehouse busting my ass. i make decent money, but its backbreaking work. i am a pretty intelligent guy, but i didnt have rich parents to pay for my college, so im stuck with a dead end job. id have to make some pretty big sacrifices to better my life. So i know what your saying as far as you have to be dealt a good hand here to succeed. It can be done though as this IS the land of oppurtunity. Its usually all about who and what you know, and how you advertise yourself. So actually im not opposed to people getting a little help from the government if they really need it. i could use some help myself to pay for education, but cant get it because i do not qualify for a government grant as i make "too much money". As far as health care is concerned, it is my opinion that everyone should be responsible for themselves. That being said, i pay a ton of taxes for medicare to help others, and then on top of that have to have health insurance for myself. Then even that doesnt cover everything. im not one to go to the hospital for every little thing, but anything major could happen at any time. So our healthcare system is indeed very flawed but i dont believe universal healthcare is the route that needs to be taken. i just believe that the government should have as little power as possible, and only help out those who really need it, and not the people who constantly mooch off the system.

It's really not as bad as you'd think. There are advocacy groups, but no one really forces it on you. Catholics might try, as will Jehovah's Witness's, but you can always say "no" and they should leave you alone.

Honestly, anyone worried about religion in America is a bit mislead by the thought of the freedom. It's true that it does play a part in politics and everything else, but it really isn't as strong as you may think.

It's not so much people proselyting on the street I'm talking about, it's things like attempts to get intelligent design taught in schools in a few American states. Even after it has failed, how many American schools have to put stickers on their textbooks claiming that "evolution is only a theory"?

Then there's the whole gay marriage ban in California, which is primarily based on religious people legislating their views. To me, this goes against the spirit of separation of church and state, even if it doesn't violate the letter of the law.

Its always interesting to see outside perspectives of our country, but theyre usually skewed. It always seems that foreign countries have nothing but negative things to say about us and especially about the Bush administration.

As a Brit, I view America as our little brother who has got into steroids. He's big and strong, but sometimes he gets the 'roid rage and acts like a dick. On the whole though, he's a good guy. It seems to me that a lot of Americans take criticism of America very personally, and think we all hate you or something.

But yeah, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a fan of Bush outside of the US.

As for people being too lazy to take care of themselves, I think that's an unfair generalisation. My personal view is that society should be a meritocracy, where success is based on intelligence and hard work. However, expecting everyone to be able to pull themselves up "by their bootstraps" is not particularly reasonable, or realistic. I think some balance has to be achieved. I have a good job, but I think a lot of that is due to the opportunities I've been given living in the UK. it's conjecture, but coming from a working class background, I don't think I'd have been as successful growing up in the US as in the UK. Would my father have been able to afford health insurance in the US? Would we have been bankrupted when he had his heart attack? Would I have had my university fees paid for me?

I think I do owe a lot of my success to the fact that the government was there to lend a helping hand when it was needed. I think if I'd been born in the US, I'd probably be working in McDonalds right now. That said, I think our welfare system goes too far in the other direction, and it's far too easy for people who don't want to work to abuse the system.

Not sure if this is true, but I've heard that Americans actually pay more per-head for healthcare than countries with "socialised medicine", and that even people who have health insurance can end up bankrupted from medical costs, especially when their insurance company gives them the shaft and refuses to pay for something. Seems to me like you're paying more, getting less, but refusing to change it because SOCIALISM THE RED MENACE !

My opinion is that going for an entirely conservative approach is shooting yourself in the foot, as you're not making the most of people as a resource. If someone that had the potential to be a great scientist, or programmer, or engineer, ends up working in McDonalds because they didn't get a good start in life, then that's a big loss to everyone.

Just my two cents. I don't have any particular political affiliation, I think both sides of the political spectrum have some good ideas, but that those who venture too far left or right tend to be batshit insane! In particular, I think people on the left need to recognise that people who work hard deserve the reward they get, and people on the right need to recognise that not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and that sometimes it's OK for people to ask for help.

I think your biggest misconception is that all right wingers are wealthy. Most underclass people I know and have met, blue collar workers such as myself, are republicans or conservative in nature.

As for the "meritocracy" that is kind of how capitalism works, minus the big business end. Also, dont go around thinking America is all about big business, it's the small, privately owned business that makes so many people wealthy, or at least it did.

As for medicine, I dont want the government telling me I dont need an operation. I have severe seasonal allergies and if we had socialized medicine, I fear they would tell me I dont need anything for it because it's not life and death. Call it closed minded, but I dont want the government interfering with that, which is one thing our Constitution protects against.

On the university side, of course you dont have them paid for here. Colleges and Universities are privately owned. You can get government grants and loans, but you must pay them back over time. Not everyone is entitled to go to a uni. in my opinion, there are a lot, and I mean A LOT, of stupid people here in the USA and I honestly think only those with their priorities in order should be allowed to go to a uni. I hate to say it, but look into our Universities and colleges and see what you think about it, read up on the tuition.

+ 10. Well said Alucard

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have a problem getting an operation over here if you genuinely have a problem. Besides which, you can still go private under socialised healthcare if you can afford it, or have medical insurance, and I don't see how this hypothetical situation is any worse than being stiffed by your insurance company, in which case most people would be totally fucked.

I agree that not everyone should be able to go to uni. Where I disagree, is that I feel whether or not someone can go to university should be based on their ability, not their background. I wouldn't have been able to afford university if the government hadn't paid my fees for me, but at the end of the day the tax payer will make a profit on that investment through the higher taxes I pay from having a decent job.

I disagree that capitalism by itself is a meritocracy. I think it provides a good framework to base one on, but if your social background is more of a limiting factor than your ability then it's not what I would call a meritocracy. If intelligent people with masses of potential end up stuck in dead end jobs, because they come from a poor background, then that's an extremely bad thing in my opinion.