So here we discuss and DEBATE religion. (you know, debate, that thing where people with different opinions discuss them reasonably without others dictating and shutting them out)



Devin has a fair few references to religion in his music, but he has made his stance clear I think... he doesn't like religion itself, and seems to think we would all be better off without it - and that is perhaps an indirect message within his universalist music. He has personally said this in less polite terms when performing live "F*** religion" for example. Which some people could find highly offensive. Not me, but some might... it's a way of life for some people.

I disagree with him personally, although I am not religious per se. But I do think people need controlling en masse, and I think religion is a good method of that despite it's imperfections. Religion is only as good as the people running, so don't shoot the religion, dudes! And imo we are starting to see why we need things like religion now. And I don't believe any amount of individualism or spirituality will compensate for the fallout of having no religions.

So who here agrees with him? That there is no use for religion.

Who belongs to a religion and does not agree with him?

Let's here some thoughts, and don't be afraid to have an opinion, we can all still be friends if you are reasonable enough.

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Taken from a 2005 interview with Devin in Chronicles of Chaos:

Politics and religion don't belong in metal -- at least not in my metal.

As for religion, personally I'm an existential nihilist, and I find using religion as a method of controlling the masses to be rather insidious, be it a small cult or an entire nation. It can have its positives, but it can also have drastic negatives, and sadly I see more of the negative than the positive where religion is especially controlling.

Now, if one wishes to have faith in something, like in a god (or devil), in humanity, in aliens, in nature (as does Dev), in a flying pasta monster, or whatever, to allow them to live a good and balanced life, that's fine. My mother is a Catholic, and while she enjoys a secular lifestyle, she uses her religion to bring her inner peace, despite disagreeing with some of the rules that come with the faith. She knows that as long as her children (3 out of 4 of us are irreligious) live good lives it shouldn't matter if we believe in a god. Many people I work with are religious, and those who are mostly share the same opinion.

To reiterate: having faith in something to give you a positive outlook, whether or not you believe in a deity, can be a positive thing. Using religion as a method of control, dictation, and a literal set of rules to live by, forgoing all else and free will, as far as I'm concerned is unhealthy. While I'd like all religion to go away, I know it won't, I know there are some people who have a strong desire and need for it, and I'll let them, so long as they don't try and decide how I live my life.

If you believe in unicorns, they WILL talk to you. : )

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search.php?keywords=religion&terms=all&author=&fid[]=14&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

[Octillus]

this is not a forum for debate. This will stay open as long as it does so long as folks are able to remain civil, but since this is a dire need inside of you to stir up something, don't expect it to stay open for long.

You're just in the wrong place for all of this.

I'm glad to live in a country where religion is slowly going away.
People can believe whatever they want, but if you have people believing in magic and fairytales it does not really help society. Ask that Texas governor if fasting helped make it rain.
Also, I dislike how the focus of religion is usually on capturing the minds of very young children, or very vunerable adults.
And people running the religions are usually the worst culprits... The Pope sweeping pedophilia case under the rug, while trying to force people not to use contraception and such, it just seems so backwards and counter intuitive.
At the end the day for me the thing is that any good that religion can provide me, I can get from somewhere else.
And I'm secure enough with my self that I don't need an answer to every question in life.

http://www.hevydevyforums.com/forums/search.php?keywords=religion&terms=all&author=&fid[]=14&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Or, more specifically...

Personally, I would be agnostic, but sort of teetering towards atheism. I understand people needing the notion of God or gods in their lives to get by in times of hardship or just for some sort of comfort in their daily lives but it's not something I've ever seen as necessary. I don't really agree with organised religion either, and think it's a pity people seem to need these congregations and huge establishments to believe under. I've always thought that private prayer and an internal faith in whatever higher power you want would be a much better alternative for everyone.

I do like the notion of God and all that comes with it. I think it's kind of romantic and beautiful to believe that there is something somewhere looking after everyone, that after death there's some place that we can all look forward to going and that everything is on this rock for a reason and it would be fantastic for some concrete proof of that to ever show up. But that's fairly unlikely, and on the other side of the coin it all just strikes me as a bit too illogical and far-fetched to actually be plausible. I don't think there's a light at the end of the life tunnel. It's just dark, and nobody that you knew and loved that has died will be waiting for you at the end. Life is for living and having a laugh, not worrying about whatever comes after. Cross that bridge when you come to it, but I for one don't expect anything to be on the other side, as much as I'd love to...

Taken from a 2005 interview with Devin in Chronicles of Chaos:

Politics and religion don't belong in metal -- at least not in my metal.

Well Devin has contradicted himself then... or changed his mind since 2005, as he seems to regularly add ideas about religion in his music, indirectly at least. And playing live he has been very direct about shunning it as mentioned. Which I think is not logical.

I used to be very anti-religious myself. But after thinking for a long time and studying, I came to the conclusion that it is far more logical and superior to have a religion than having no religion. And that mistakes are mans doing, not that of religions.

IMO this modern form of "Individualism" is close to meaningless. Things have much greater value and longevity when people do them together as a family, as a community, as a whole. And naturally you cannot function efficiently as a whole without a structure behind you and to bind you (sounding like lotr now)....... and one of those structures is obviously a religion.

Using religion as a method of control, dictation, and a literal set of rules to live by, forgoing all else and free will, as far as I'm concerned is unhealthy.

Or rather you think it looks and sounds unhealthy. But we should remind ourselves that things that look, sound, taste and seem unhealthy are not always so.

And people running the religions are usually the worst culprits... The Pope sweeping pedophilia case under the rug, while trying to force people not to use contraception and such, it just seems so backwards and counter intuitive.

The Irony is that the logic for sweeping some things under the carpet is to maintain the integrity and credibility of such a large and important organisation like the Catholic Church. That is not to say that pedos or whatever should go unpunished, of course they should be punished and removed, but the fine details of incidents need not ever be passed to the general public - assuming you want to maintain a strong and faithful church.

Because as soon as you start releasing details of such things, ordinary people are able to pick holes and point fingers, start thinking for themselves and questioning things, which reduces the power and influence of the Church, and in turn breaks down social order.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against people thinking entirely, but the idea that an average Joe has the same level of philosophical comprehension of Church function as the people who study and contrive religious scripture and doctrine is beyond ridiculous. The same applies to most organisations. Which is why people are starting to take little care or notice of government and power in general. And since we are ruled by a growing globalist ochlocracy, it's bad news for everyone IMO.

I understand people needing the notion of God or gods in their lives to get by in times of hardship or just for some sort of comfort in their daily lives but it's not something I've ever seen as necessary.

Because we live a life of convenience these days, in concrete jungles we have made for ourselves. You haven't had the need to have a faith or religion because everything has been handed to you on a silver spoon most likely, just like it has for all of us.

But religion didn't just come out of thin air for the sake of it. People thought about it, had reasons for it etc. It was there for a reason. Has the need for it suddenly vanished just because we've had a few decades worth of technological improvement? Most definitely not imo. In fact if anything, it's needed more now than ever before.

As the saying goes, there are no atheists in foxholes. When the time comes, I believe we will everyone be craving some sort of faith and religion. It might not even be in this lifetime, but somewhere down our lines it will return out of necessity.

Life is for living and having a laugh, not worrying about whatever comes after. Cross that bridge when you come to it, but I for one don't expect anything to be on the other side, as much as I'd love to...

Okay. So what is this "living" and "having a laugh" that you speak of. We've certainly been doing it more the last half century. Is it rock stars and pop stars dieing of drug overdoses? Is it lady gaga setting the example for children growing up ? Is it people behaving and acting degenerately because they have been led to believe that it is an acceptable form of being? Because no one has told them it was bad, or that there was anything to fear?

Is happiness material excessive-ness, which has clearly become the new standard (without the influence of any religion at all) ? Fighting and arguing over money and worldly things, as opposed to fighting for a higher cause?

Because rest assured, with or without religion, people will still be fighting and killing each other in the millions over the next big thing.... just like we are today, with money and capitalism.

Fine, I guess I'll contribute.

Please note that I've had limited experience due to my age, but here's what opinion I've managed to piece together regardless.

I'm something of an apathetic nihilistic agnostic, but I do view religion as a double-edged razor. Yes, there are all the negative aspects that have been listed before, but there are positive things to arise from it as well. Without religion, those millions of believers would have no sense of purpose, meaning, or in some cases, even morality in their lives, and out of this, absolute chaos would arise. Religion may be a tool to keep the people under control, but it makes sense that people would want to make purposes where there are none. In the earlier days of my nihilism, I went through a multitude of phases, most of which were spent wanting to return to the religion which I was raised upon (Roman Catholicism), or even envying the religious flock for having a set purpose and being content in the knowledge that everything would be alright, even in the face of the great mysteries that comprise most of our existence. However, I could never really bring myself to throw away what I held as common sense at the time and just blindly follow, unquestioningly. These days, I do realize that there are people who hold a religious faith and can still think for themselves, ask questions, and live their lives the way they want to. Unfortunately, there are a lot more examples of religion having a negative effect on one's life than there are of religion causing something positive. My entire family is all radically Catholic. There was a time when my mother was going through an atheistic phase, during which she really enjoyed her life, lived in the moment, and so on. But then, she became a Catholic again, and nowadays she can't even enjoy her life because she's too busy worrying about her duties as a Catholic and politics (but that's a story for another thread, which, mods-willing will never rear its ugly head on the Devy forums). My grandparents, and pretty much every other person in my bloodline (with the exception of my father's side, in which case you replace Catholic with Baptist) are the exact same way. I apologize for the rant and for going on about my life so much, but I just wanted to use true examples that religion has never really had a positive effect in the life of anyone that I know. I do recognize that there are people that can be fulfilled by it, but I've only ever seen it bring the negative aspects to people.

On the subject of religion being the root causes of most of the world's problems, that's another reason that I have to view religion, for all its faults, is beneficial. Yes, there's been a lot of bloodshed and senseless violence in the names of carious beliefs, but that doesn't mean that religion is the scapegoat of all of the imperfections of human nature. Just look at the world around you. There's an awful lot of senseless violence, wrongdoings, and immorality all around us that has nothing to do with religion. In fact, without religion creating reasons to adhere to a set morality, most of these things would only increase if religion was eliminated. I'd say that a plethora of these problems would be solved WITH religion rather than without it, as depressingly ironic as it sounds.

Welp, there's my two cents, and with that off my chest, I'm staying on the Devin-related topics from now on.

I do think people need controlling en masse